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Metabones speedbooster
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko wrote:
Samyang 24mm f/1.4 :
http://www.eoshd.com/content/9485/metabones-speed-booster-adapter-full-review?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+EOSHD+%28EOSHD.com%29


smart writer Very Happy
Quote:
One way to fix corner sharpness is simply to take the adapter off if it doesn’t help the shot. Simple.
You see – the problem is really quite straight forward with simple solutions and not worth stressing too much about.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko wrote:
rawhead wrote:
E.g., Canon TS-E 17/4L, which can shift 8mm and tilt 8˚. Perhaps this will become a 12mm equivalent T/S lens on the FF NEX, but with the limitation that shift will be limited to 5mm and tilt to 5˚.

Caldwell posted on the nikongear.com link (earlier post) that he is about to test just this lens. He's already tested the Nikon 28mm f/3.5 PC and it's OK - although it's shift only and the amont of shift is reduced as you expected.

Very interesting; The fact is that I have the 24mm TS-E v1.
(The fact is also the the lens was much cheaper than the Speed Boster...)


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko wrote:
rawhead wrote:
E.g., Canon TS-E 17/4L, which can shift 8mm and tilt 8˚. Perhaps this will become a 12mm equivalent T/S lens on the FF NEX, but with the limitation that shift will be limited to 5mm and tilt to 5˚.

Caldwell posted on the nikongear.com link (earlier post) that he is about to test just this lens. He's already tested the Nikon 28mm f/3.5 PC and it's OK - although it's shift only and the amont of shift is reduced as you expected.


The 17/4 TS-E actually has +/- 12mm of shift and ~+/-7 degrees of tilt. In some quick tests I was able to make full use of the movements (at least used separately - haven't tried max shift and max tilt at the same time).

The bottom line is that it really works and I saw no obvious vignetting even when a full 12mm shift is used (in landscape orientation). However there is at least one odd thing that occurs since the optical axes of the TS-E lens and the Speed Booster are no longer co-linear when movements are applied: Even though you can use the full +/- 12mm of shift, and even though the combined lens really is a 12mm f/2.8, the effect of shifting is scaled by 0.71x. In other words, shifting the 17mm TSE by 12mm when attached to the SB produces the same result as shifting a 12mm lens by 8.5mm on DX format.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
This may be a dumb question, but can Metabones make a universal speedbooster with different mounts and no AF? This would be much more useful to me as I have no Canon EF or Nikon lenses.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DanielT74 wrote:
This may be a dumb question, but can Metabones make a universal speedbooster with different mounts and no AF? This would be much more useful to me as I have no Canon EF or Nikon lenses.


I have already asked them, and am awaiting a reply. I would *instantly* pay up for an M42 or PK version (C/Y would be very nice too), with the optics, but no AF.

And if Brainc1959 is the designer of the optics, as I suspect it is, then Hats off to You sir, a superb piece of work.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Universal, certainly not, as this is dependent on the flange distance. But all mounts that can be adapted without glass on Canon's EOS can already benefit from the Speedbooster, instantly. Sure, I'd love declinations for all the existing mounts but I'm guessing that the Metabones' piece of glass requires some space so there will be limitations; and I'm also assuming that, in case of native adapter, the piece of glass needs to be different (so different manufacture and different design) for each of the mount...

Ideally, for MF lenses, an AR=>Nex AF-free SpeedBooster would already be great (if flange is sufficient - I guess M=> Nex would be too short), as then you could rely on glass-free adapters to connect to the AR mount.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
NewStuff wrote:
And if Brainc1959 is the designer of the optics, as I suspect it is, then Hats off to You sir, a superb piece of work.

+1. The Master was here.
The T&S issue is very interesting indeed.
To quote EOSHD link "All in all – if this adapter does not send shock waves through the camera industry I don’t know what will."


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hello Brian

I completed an inquiry form at your website in connection with an anamorphic interest.

1 Did you get it? (I can resend if you did'nt)
2 Am I likely to get a response?

best

John


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
brianc1959 wrote:
sichko wrote:
rawhead wrote:
E.g., Canon TS-E 17/4L, which can shift 8mm and tilt 8˚. Perhaps this will become a 12mm equivalent T/S lens on the FF NEX, but with the limitation that shift will be limited to 5mm and tilt to 5˚.

Caldwell posted on the nikongear.com link (earlier post) that he is about to test just this lens. He's already tested the Nikon 28mm f/3.5 PC and it's OK - although it's shift only and the amont of shift is reduced as you expected.


The 17/4 TS-E actually has +/- 12mm of shift and ~+/-7 degrees of tilt. In some quick tests I was able to make full use of the movements (at least used separately - haven't tried max shift and max tilt at the same time).

The bottom line is that it really works and I saw no obvious vignetting even when a full 12mm shift is used (in landscape orientation). However there is at least one odd thing that occurs since the optical axes of the TS-E lens and the Speed Booster are no longer co-linear when movements are applied: Even though you can use the full +/- 12mm of shift, and even though the combined lens really is a 12mm f/2.8, the effect of shifting is scaled by 0.71x. In other words, shifting the 17mm TSE by 12mm when attached to the SB produces the same result as shifting a 12mm lens by 8.5mm on DX format.



I stand corrected; I knew that tilt or shift was more limited on the TS-E 17 than the other lenses; I guess it was the tilt (±7 instead of the usual ±8) rather than the shift. Heh, I should've just walked over to my shelf and looked :-)

It's great to hear from the horse's mouth, this is just wonderful news. Every time I hear about the real world tests of this product, the happier I am about having ordered it. Can't wait to get it in my hands. Bravo. Very interesting about the "scaled" shifting!!!!


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What I want to know, Mr. Caldwell, is what would happen if you mounted the TS-E17 with the SpeedBooster on an FF NEX sensor--currently the only machine allowing you to test that would be VG900. Would it act like a TS-E 12/2.8 on FF as well? (THAT would be awesome). And, my guess is that even if you could, THEN the amount you can shift (and tilt?) would be limited.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rawhead wrote:
What I want to know, Mr. Caldwell, is what would happen if you mounted the TS-E17 with the SpeedBooster on an FF NEX sensor--currently the only machine allowing you to test that would be VG900. Would it act like a TS-E 12/2.8 on FF as well? (THAT would be awesome). And, my guess is that even if you could, THEN the amount you can shift (and tilt?) would be limited.


Unfortunately you would get severe vignetting on FF. The SB optics would have to dramatically increase in size to make it work - and even then I think shifting would result in vignetting due to lens limitations, but this is currently impractical due to space limitations in the NEX and Fuji-X cameras.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBar wrote:
Hello Brian

I completed an inquiry form at your website in connection with an anamorphic interest.

1 Did you get it? (I can resend if you did'nt)
2 Am I likely to get a response?

best

John


I've been swamped by email lately, and yours may have been lost in the shuffle. Sorry.

Anamorphic is something we are thinking about, but I can't say anything beyond that right now.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DanielT74 wrote:
This may be a dumb question, but can Metabones make a universal speedbooster with different mounts and no AF? This would be much more useful to me as I have no Canon EF or Nikon lenses.


The problems with a universal mount approach are:

1) Tolerance buildup by using stacked adapters can cause lens tilt and inability to achieve infinity focus.
2) Too many lenses to keep track of, many of which might cause mechanical interference with the Speed Booster optics. (i.e., a piece of metal sticking out the back of the lens might crash into the SB glass).

It took quite a bit of effort to get everything working for Canon and Nikon optics (testing several dozen lenses for mechanical clearance etc.) Promising a true universal adapter is just too difficult and risky at present.

Additional mounts will be added as we test more lenses and can be sure that a given brand of lenses will function properly.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
brianc1959 wrote:
DanielT74 wrote:
This may be a dumb question, but can Metabones make a universal speedbooster with different mounts and no AF? This would be much more useful to me as I have no Canon EF or Nikon lenses.


The problems with a universal mount approach are:

1) Tolerance buildup by using stacked adapters can cause lens tilt and inability to achieve infinity focus.
2) Too many lenses to keep track of, many of which might cause mechanical interference with the Speed Booster optics. (i.e., a piece of metal sticking out the back of the lens might crash into the SB glass).

It took quite a bit of effort to get everything working for Canon and Nikon optics (testing several dozen lenses for mechanical clearance etc.) Promising a true universal adapter is just too difficult and risky at present.

Additional mounts will be added as we test more lenses and can be sure that a given brand of lenses will function properly.


Awesome work indeed!
A simple adapter from micro43 to pentax screw mount m42 is on my wishlist! Very Happy


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And a MD to NEX on mine Very Happy


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I did not understand the the choice of Canon EF in the first place as there are many excellent full frame Canon digital cameras around. And you get reasonable (5D) to high end (1Ds) AF for free. Wink

How about Canon FD or Minolta MD?


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
brianc1959 wrote:

Unfortunately you would get severe vignetting on FF. The SB optics would have to dramatically increase in size to make it work - and even then I think shifting would result in vignetting due to lens limitations, but this is currently impractical due to space limitations in the NEX and Fuji-X cameras.


With all due respect, this doesn't quite make sense to me; If you are able to mount a TS lens on the Speed Booster and get the maximum amount of shift w/o vignetting on an APS-C sensor (albeit with an "apparent" shift amount of ~8mm instead of 12mm), then wouldn't that mean that you're still getting a nice big image circle that goes beyond the diagonal of the APS-C sensor?

The TS-E 17 has an image circe of 67.2mm. If the Speed Booster doesn't physically interfere & obstruct the image circle, then the reduced image circle should be 67.2*0.71 = 47.71 mm. This jives with what you said since the diagonal of an APS-C is 30.1 mm, so the difference is 17.7 mm, half of that is 8.9 mm, which would translate to around 8 mm shift (a little less I guess).


A full frame sensor's diagonal is 43.3mm, so the reduced image circle should cover it, and show very little vignetting or edge distortion, for that matter, as has been tested by folks @ Hartblei and their H-cam. My guess was that with a 43.3 mm diagonal sensor and a 47.71 mm mage circle, you would get very limited movement (2~3mm, i.e., (47.71 - 43.3)/2 = 2.2), but you'd still get it. While the limited amount of movement might make shifting not too practical, having a "fixed" (non-shifting) 12mm F2.8 Ultrasuperduper wide angle lens, with very good corner preformance would make it very appealing even without movements.

Can you tell me where I'm getting this wrong?

Last edited by rawhead on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
brianc1959 wrote:
DanielT74 wrote:
This may be a dumb question, but can Metabones make a universal speedbooster with different mounts and no AF? This would be much more useful to me as I have no Canon EF or Nikon lenses.


The problems with a universal mount approach are:

1) Tolerance buildup by using stacked adapters can cause lens tilt and inability to achieve infinity focus.
2) Too many lenses to keep track of, many of which might cause mechanical interference with the Speed Booster optics. (i.e., a piece of metal sticking out the back of the lens might crash into the SB glass).

It took quite a bit of effort to get everything working for Canon and Nikon optics (testing several dozen lenses for mechanical clearance etc.) Promising a true universal adapter is just too difficult and risky at present.

Additional mounts will be added as we test more lenses and can be sure that a given brand of lenses will function properly.


Thank you very much for the answer, Brian.

The lenses I use the most are M mounts and Contax G mounts and of course I have the adapters already, so a possibly even dumber question is whether it is possible to build a speedbooster that will take NEX mounts, so that our existing adapted lenses could be used.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rawhead wrote:
Can you tell me where I'm getting this wrong?

The Metabones adapter itself has an APS-C image circle, you want them to design a fullframe one that can project medium format lenses?


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rawhead wrote:
The TS-E 17 has an image circe of 67.2mm. If the Speed Booster doesn't physically interfere & obstruct the image circle....


Maybe it does. Maybe the SB is designed to provide an image circle which is big enough to illuminate the APS-C sensor - with a diagonal of ~ 28 mm - but nothing bigger. You still see the shift effect because the APS-C sees a different part of the (hypothetical) 47.7 mm image circle - provided by the shift lens/SB combination - as the shift position on the lens is changed.

EDIT Fabian got there before me.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fabian & sichko

Yeah, that makes sense; that's why I said "If the Speed Booster doesn't physically interfere & obstruct the image circle". I guess it does then…

Quote:
you want them to design a fullframe one that can project medium format lenses?


Why yes, I actually would Very Happy

Oh yes, Mr. Caldwell, if you read this, this is what I want next. I've already told Stefan Steib to talk to you guys about it, but, I want this same adapter for Hasselblad V-mount, to be used with crop square sensor MF backs, like the CFV-16 Smile Smile Smile Smile Please please please realize the dream of all the Hasselblad square lovers!!


PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko wrote:
rawhead wrote:
The TS-E 17 has an image circe of 67.2mm. If the Speed Booster doesn't physically interfere & obstruct the image circle....


Maybe it does. Maybe the SB is designed to provide an image circle which is big enough to illuminate the APS-C sensor - with a diagonal of ~ 28 mm - but nothing bigger. You still see the shift effect because the APS-C sees a different part of the (hypothetical) 47.7 mm image circle - provided by the shift lens/SB combination - as the shift position on the lens is changed.

EDIT Fabian got there before me.

So the question is now even more simple : Will it be possible to use, theorically, the Speed Booster designed for Nex APS-C, on a futur Full Frame E mount camera ?
For example to use a Medium Format lens with a simple shift adapter ? And still have the benefit of a x0.7 conversion ?
Dear Mr Caldwell ?

EDIT : OK read it again : if Fabian got the answer, the question is outdated.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
DanielT74 wrote:

The lenses I use the most are M mounts and Contax G mounts and of course I have the adapters already, so a possibly even dumber question is whether it is possible to build a speedbooster that will take NEX mounts, so that our existing adapted lenses could be used.

BTW there is no space for a Speed Booster with Range Finder lenses.
And Rokkors (SR aka MD), Hexanons (K/AR), Canons (R, FL, FD) have no solution in the near future (sorry).


PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
For the other mount compatible with the EF register flange, keep that in mind :
brianc1959 wrote:

1) Tolerance buildup by using stacked adapters can cause lens tilt and inability to achieve infinity focus.
2) Too many lenses to keep track of, many of which might cause mechanical interference with the Speed Booster optics. (i.e., a piece of metal sticking out the back of the lens might crash into the SB glass).

.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mr. Caldwell, may I suggest that metabones include a plastic thingy to check the physical clearance with the adapter (if it hasn't been done yet), much like what Fuji include in their M adapter. The thought of metal protrusion from lens or stacked adapter scratching the glass of the $600 speed booster sounds scary.
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