medium format camera help

rbelyell · Expire: 2014-01-31

because of the interchangeability of their lenses with my 5d, i am seriously thinking of getting a kiev 60. i know NOTHING about medium format, never even held one, except that i really love some of the images ive seen on this forum.

i really need some basic 'how to' information, from soup to nuts, covering the simplest concepts of MF picture taking. does anyone know any such online or other resource?

separately, i do know that it is possible to somehow scan the resulting images into my computer to do PP if necessary, which is what i would want to do. if i decide to shoot slide film, can i then directly scan the resultant slides or do i have to have them 'developed' first? (see how basic my questions are?) Embarassed

Rolf · Expire: 2015-12-26

Hi Tony,

I can´t say anything about the Kiev 60. Only some words to the post processing.

If you will get similar results with film scanned into the computer compared to digital you have to spend a lot of money for the scanner.

I´m sure you will get very good results with the medium format cam - and that´s not primary a question of slide or colour film (whereby the slide film has the better dynamic range) - but you will lose a lot of the advantages of the medium format if you try to save money at the scanner.

I don´t know the pricelevel in USA but in Germany you have to pay for a good fladbed scanner (Epson V700) approx. 500,00 Euros. For me this scanner is the lowest quality level to get good results. (see my samples of the Rolleiflex in the B&W film section)

It would be the same if you drive your Subaru with remolds if you save money at this point. Wink

F16SUNSHINE · Expire: 2011-11-18

Rolf beat me to it.

Medium format Transparencies are amazing absolutely.
The problem will be getting a good scan.
I also have the V700 and find it can give me quality out of my 66 and 67 shots similar to the 5D for screen viewing (better for printing).
Now the upside is if you do not wish to show on the computer. The projected scans are amazing.
Also looking at the slides on the Light table can be very satisfying as can any resultant prints you make very large.

Nesster · Expire: 2014-02-20

For me the important thing to understand about med format SLRs is how large and heavy they are.

Also, to my eye, the 'standard' focal length of a med format camera renders the world in a very alluring way - the DOF and distance effects.

I have an Epson 4490 and it does OK with the scans, but scanning does end up being the weak point in getting med format onto the computer.

How basic do you need to get with the guide, e.g. how the film is rolled and loaded?

rbelyell · Expire: 2014-01-31

F16SUNSHINE · Expire: 2011-11-18

Maybe you want to try shooting some 35mm film first.
A lab can develop and scan for you.
It is a good way to become familiar with the process of using film.
Medium format is not more complicated as far as exposing and composing. It is more expensive as far as learning curve.

ludoo · Expire: 2011-12-05

And if you really decide to shoot film, be prepared learn how to develop b&w,: not only it's much cheaper than shooting slides, it's also pretty easy and very satisfying to open the tank and extract a freshly developed roll.

rbelyell · Expire: 2014-01-31

hey guys, ive shot film before! though not in about 10 years. but my understanding was that med format much different, much more to be aware of...

Rolf · Expire: 2015-12-26

cooltouch · Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 9096 Location: Houston, Texas

Folks, I really must disagree with the comments regarding scanners. I have achieved outstanding results with my old Epson 3170 -- which has a maximum optical resolution of 3200 ppi -- and my newer Epson 4990 -- which scans at up to 4800 ppi. You can probably pick up a clean used 3170 or 3200 for $50US or less. I bought my 3170 new about six years ago, and paid $200 for my 4990 about six months ago.

I scan medium format at 2400 ppi with my Epson scanners. That's all you need. Here are a couple of mf images I scanned with my 3170, both taken with a Yashica Mat 124G. Scanned at 2400 ppi:

And the 4990 is even better. I can post 100% crops if you want.

rbelyell, as far as your questions regarding development, yes, you'll have to have your film -- whether slides or negatives -- developed first. Scanner software has selections where you tell it which type of film emulsion you're scanning.

As for trying to decide on an mf camera, I just went through this not too long ago. I had some experience already, which helped some when I was trying to make up my mind again. One of my favorites was my old Yashica Mat 124G. So, getting another one was high on my list. I bought a Yashica Mat 124 a couple months ago or so and it's been a blast using it. I've scanned some images with taken with my 124 here and scanned with my 4990. You can find them in the B&W gallery, with Yashica Mat 124 in the title.

I wanted to get an interchangeable-lens mf SLR also, though, and debated this for a while. I too was looking at the Kiev 6, as well as the Pentacon 6, Praktica 6, etc., and learned from some reading that the Kiev is a problem unless it's been gone through by somebody who knows how to bring them up to good operating condition. I didn't find all that much of a selection on eBay when I was looking. Besides, these are all focal plane shutter cameras, and I really wanted to get a leaf-shutter camera so I could have flash sync at all speeds. So I was also looking at Mamiya RBs and Bronica SQAs. And then, over at the APUG forum, somebody suggested I take a look at the Bronica ETR series, a 645 format SLR, and a whole bunch of other folks chimed in about how great it was. Well, I was still wanting a 6x6 or larger, but I started keeping my eye out for ETR outfits anyway. Did some research and decided that, if I went the ETR route, I wanted to get the ETRSi because of features it has that the earlier ones do not. I also checked out the Pentax and Mamiya 645s, but it seemed that the best prices were for the Bronicas. And having owned an old Bronica outfit years ago, I already had a favorable view of their stuff, so I was naturally leaning in that direction anyway, albeit for the SQA-series -- or so I thought.

Then I ran across an auction for a decent looking ETRSi outfit that was well within my budget, bid on it and won it. I've had a chance to run four or five rolls of film through it so far, and I'm quite impressed. Images are sharp and contrasty, I've got interchangeable leaf-shutter lenses, and it's a modular system with lots of options and accessories. Plus, with the prism finder and Speed Grip E attached, it handles a lot like a large 35mm camera. As for the 6x4.5cm negative size -- well, that's still mighty big.

IANUS · Joined: 14 Oct 2008 Posts: 276 Location: Germany

Rolf · Expire: 2015-12-26

Hi Tony,

I have no interest to start a discussion with Michael regarding scanners and what is the cheapest to get good results etc.

It is like always - you ask 10 people and get 11 answers.

One of the reason to shot with medium format - beside the fun factor - is the great resolution of this format. If you like you can converted it in MegaPixels.
On the other side you will get some disadvantages (see the posts before - heavy, not a quick cam, expensive, additional light meter etc etc. )

The weakest part within your workflow determinate the result. At the end it is your decision where you will save or spend money.

Wink

kansalliskala · Expire: 2016-12-30

My suggestion: get a cheap folder like:
Click here to see on Ebay
($ 25 with shipping?)

Put a roll of slide film into it and shoot the 12 frames.
(you should have an exposure meter on slide film
but the shutter isn't that accurate anyways so it is all
the same to use sunny 16 Wink

)
($ 5-10?)

Then try to get it developed at a reasonable cost.
($ 10?)

After you get back the slides, then starts the interesting part:
1 Find a sturdy carboard box about 3 x 3 x 6-10 inches
2 Select some lens (80 mm could be fine) that can be attached to the box
3 Get some powerful but cold light source (I used an ordinary
led-headlamp first but it is too dark, halogens are too hot)
4 build a crude slide-projector out of them
5 find a white wall and project the slides there

If you like what you did and what you see, start saving the $ 1000
others suggest you spend on equipment. Smile

EDIT:
ps. If the folder is totally crap, it looks anyways cool on the bookshelf

Rolf · Expire: 2015-12-26

kansalliskala · Expire: 2016-12-30

Rolf · Expire: 2015-12-26

Nesster · Expire: 2014-02-20

Basics about 120 film...
Here are some instructions:
http://holga.taken.jp/about/manual.html Twisted Evil

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/how2load120.htm Twisted Evil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zfh9AdF5n8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQvr1b5upHE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DPcILMuzDU

Razz

Now that that's out of the way, you can see that the thing is just about as easy as 35mm ... or not. I find developing it - getting it onto the (plastic) reel and onto the scanner - easier than 35mm.

I concur with much of the advice above - probably the best thing is to start with a low cost folder or TLR, as a way of getting into the format. If you don't develop the film yourself, the cost of having someone else do it for you will be greater than with 35mm, but the results will quickly beat 35mm... I think the scanner ends up being the limiting factor - I use an Epson 4490, which was the cheapest at the time with 120 ability, and this does produce good results (I'm not certain how much better the more expensive ones are in practice).

But then, there's no harm in starting at the top with a SLR. The nice thing about medium format is that most likely you'll make your money back if selling.

peterqd · Expire: 2014-01-04

Here is my experience, I hope it's useful Tony.

I was persuaded to go with a TLR as my first MF camera, and I'm really thankful. I found a nice solid and dependable YashicaMat 124G for not too much. It's a little bulkier than a 35mm SLR, but no heavier I think. The downside of most TLRs for me, as someone who loves fiddling with lenses, is that you're stuck with the standard 80mm lens. Wonderful though it is, there are times I would love to widen the viewing angle. The largest aperture is f3.5, which is sometimes restrictive and makes the viewfinder a little dark.

Film loading is a doddle and the winding handle/shutter cocking mechanism is positive and fun, with no overlapping. The match-needle meter linked to the aperture and shutter controls is accurate and easy to use. The waist-level finder takes a while to get used to (the image is reversed horizontally) and as a spectacles-wearer, I need to use the in-built magnifying glass to focus. But the small irritations are more than balanced by interested people asking what you're doing! Smile

If I wanted to progress further with MF I wouldn't lock myself to a cheap & unreliable SLR with its own lens system, like the Kiev. I'm sure I'd be hankering for something better before very long, so I think I'd much rather put the money towards a quality 645 box, like a Bronica, Mamiya or Hassie.

I send all colour films to a lab for developing but do B&W films and all the scanning myself. The slides come back uncut and unmounted, but you can buy 6x6 mounts and do it yourself if you want. Scanning 120 slides and negatives is not really much different to 135 film. I use the Epson V700 too. The beauty of this model is that you can scan 6 frames (in 2 strips) at the same time. The film holder is a bit flimsy but simple to use. Some people prefer a better third party holder which holds the film more flat.

One last thing, MF is a more expensive way of enjoying photography, but the improvement in quality over 35mm is absolutely amazing and well worth it. Compared to digital, you will need to take more time and think more carefully about each shot, and this is the fun part for me.

Good luck, whatever you decide! Smile

Nesster · Expire: 2014-02-20

Peter, well said!

I forget who wrote this - that the obsession with lens resolution is a 35mm phenomenon...

rbelyell · Expire: 2014-01-31

wow, how generous you all are with your experiences and advice--it is very much appreciated. you have given me much to think about. on the hardware side, i am not looking to spend a whole lot on the camera, and find the kiev interesting because i can also use the lenses on my 5d, that is really a very big plus for me. i discovered a great camera serviceman whom i can rely on to get any version into working shape. then its really about how to use the thing and starting out with some basic scanning and moving up if the format captures my enthusiasm. thank you to everyone for your help, i am certain to need more as this plan progresses!
tony

kansalliskala · Expire: 2016-12-30

rbelyell · Expire: 2014-01-31

@peterq & @kk: for my own interchangeable lens-on-all-my-cameras theory, i think i am going to look out for a good deal on a kiev 60/lens combo--something around $100 or so for a package like this will work for me. i have my sights on a couple, it may take a while but i think i can accomplish that.

peterqd · Expire: 2014-01-04

cooltouch · Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 9096 Location: Houston, Texas

rbelyell · Expire: 2014-01-31

btw, is there a difference between the kiev 60 and pentacon 6? esp in the metering?