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kebuldaj
Joined: 13 Feb 2021 Posts: 12
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:10 am Post subject: MANUAL MACRO LENS |
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kebuldaj wrote:
Hello lens lovers,
Would like to start scanning my slides with digital camera, and trying to decide which macro lens should I try. As I have Fuji X-T2 (APSC) camera,
the first idea came in form of Laowa 65mm f/2.8 2x Ultra Macro APO. Has good reviews, modern glass, APO design and etc.
Afterwise I thought it's for APSC sensor, so versatility is not so high, as if I could change camera system for more megapixel full frame sensor - no use for this lens.. Then I tried to find out some vintage lens options, as they could be easily adapter to any system and manual focus is more than enough for this kind of task. So I came to these options:
Nikon Micro Nikkor Ai-S 55mm 1:2.8
Asahi Pentax Macro-Takumar 50mm f4.0
Mamiya Sekor Macro C 80mm f4.0
Asahi Pentax SMC Macro Takumar 6x7 135mm f4.0
Carl Zeiss Makro-Planar T* 60 mm 1:2.8 C/Y
Carl Zeiss S-Planar T* Macro 60mm f2.8 C/Y
Leica Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm 1:2.8
Rodenstock APO Rodagon N 50mm f2.8 Enlarger / Macro Lens
..also modern Samyang Optics 100mm F2.8 ED UMC MACRO
I hear words that vintage macro lenses are not as good as modern glass, so again it adds some more confusion, to forget vintage and look to modern glass..
Does anyone can please share some thoughts regarding these macro lenses?
1. Main purpose - slide scanning.
2. Not more than 500-600 USD.
3. Vintage or Modern.
3. Choosing APSC for current setup / to have more versatility with FF lenses. (Even with APSC setup I think FF glass could have more IQ, as it will use central part of the lens)
4. Laowa and Rodenstock APO design / any design
5. Any more IQ with medium format glass? (M645 or Pentax 67)
Thanks again!
Mindas. |
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blotafton
Joined: 08 Aug 2013 Posts: 1632 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:28 am Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
I can share my experiences with scanning but unfortunately not with the lenses you have listed.
I started using a Canon EOS 40D with a EF 100mm 2.8 USM Macro. Then upgraded to a Sony a7 but kept the lens for the scanning.
I think the Canon lens may create some CA so it would be interesting to try something better but so far the results are quite close as good as it gets.
Depending on you setup you may encounter internal reflections depending focal lengths. I remember reading this from another one doing scanning. He ended up with a longer lens, 150 or 180mm macro instead of eliminating the reflections.
The APO Rodagon should do well. I have a non APO Rodagon 50mm. It's a very good lens but I can not easily use it in my current scanning setup.
You may want to look at the Nikon ES slide scanning accessory. I have not looked into details but I think it can be used with other lenses than Nikkors. |
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kebuldaj
Joined: 13 Feb 2021 Posts: 12
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:39 am Post subject: |
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kebuldaj wrote:
blotafton wrote: |
Depending on you setup you may encounter internal reflections depending focal lengths. I remember reading this from another one doing scanning. He ended up with a longer lens, 150 or 180mm macro instead of eliminating the reflections.
The APO Rodagon should do well. I have a non APO Rodagon 50mm. It's a very good lens but I can not easily use it in my current scanning setup.
You may want to look at the Nikon ES slide scanning accessory. I have not looked into details but I think it can be used with other lenses than Nikkors. |
Thanks for reply. I never thought about internal reflections.. do you mean reflections inside lens elements, aperture blades and etc. as the lens is close enough to scanned film ?
Regarding scanning accesory, I already ordered Essential Film Holder v3 from Andrew Clifforth from UK, as I heard really good impressions using this adapter, you can google about it. I already own LED panel with high CRI, so now main decision is regarding the lens. 24MP APSC camera is not the best option, but it's what I have now.. |
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D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2534
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:59 am Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
Your light source is probably more important than your lens. Did you see this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqSvTJ0s5MM _________________ pentaxian |
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blotafton
Joined: 08 Aug 2013 Posts: 1632 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
kebuldaj wrote: |
blotafton wrote: |
Depending on you setup you may encounter internal reflections depending focal lengths. I remember reading this from another one doing scanning. He ended up with a longer lens, 150 or 180mm macro instead of eliminating the reflections.
The APO Rodagon should do well. I have a non APO Rodagon 50mm. It's a very good lens but I can not easily use it in my current scanning setup.
You may want to look at the Nikon ES slide scanning accessory. I have not looked into details but I think it can be used with other lenses than Nikkors. |
Thanks for reply. I never thought about internal reflections.. do you mean reflections inside lens elements, aperture blades and etc. as the lens is close enough to scanned film ?
Regarding scanning accesory, I already ordered Essential Film Holder v3 from Andrew Clifforth from UK, as I heard really good impressions using this adapter, you can google about it. I already own LED panel with high CRI, so now main decision is regarding the lens. 24MP APSC camera is not the best option, but it's what I have now.. |
Ok then you almost good to go!
Mostly reflections between the lens and the film. But some lenses also creates reflections between lens and sensor in macro mode like the Macro Takumar 50mm f/4.
The crop sensor is not necessarily a problem, as you said you use the best part of the lens. The biggest issue with that if you want to use accessories made for full frame lenses and camera combinations.
But I agree with D1N0 that the light source is important. The LED might be a problem. I use natural light to get around finding a good artificial light source. |
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kebuldaj
Joined: 13 Feb 2021 Posts: 12
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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kebuldaj wrote:
Yes, I watched this video. Sure, light source is very important, it's about color reproduction, lighting uniformity and white balance, I think.. I have some video light with CRI/TLCI 95+ with temperature control, not a high-end, but gonna try how it works..
Regarding lens, I'm worried about sharpness, micro-contrast, distortion, chromatic abberations, vignette and etc. Would be nice to try them one-by-one and see is there are any differences in this scenario, but this way I will go bankrupt |
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kebuldaj
Joined: 13 Feb 2021 Posts: 12
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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kebuldaj wrote:
blotafton wrote: |
The LED might be a problem. I use natural light to get around finding a good artificial light source. |
yes, interesting idea, to fix scanning "table" on window is solvable problem, but then we need a lot of light, and again light temperature could be different depending on a daytime (morning / noon) also sunny/cloudy thing.. could be fixable in post maybe.
Also bright macro lens would be needed, but again we want to close aperture a bit for better DOF.. |
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blotafton
Joined: 08 Aug 2013 Posts: 1632 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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blotafton wrote:
kebuldaj wrote: |
blotafton wrote: |
The LED might be a problem. I use natural light to get around finding a good artificial light source. |
yes, interesting idea, to fix scanning "table" on window is solvable problem, but then we need a lot of light, and again light temperature could be different depending on a daytime (morning / noon) also sunny/cloudy thing.. could be fixable in post maybe.
Also bright macro lens would be needed, but again we want to close aperture a bit for better DOF.. |
I can only scan in overcast sky weather so I have to wait several weeks sometimes but the colors are great. It's worth it for me. |
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D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2534
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
kebuldaj wrote: |
Yes, I watched this video. Sure, light source is very important, it's about color reproduction, lighting uniformity and white balance, I think.. I have some video light with CRI/TLCI 95+ with temperature control, not a high-end, but gonna try how it works..
Regarding lens, I'm worried about sharpness, micro-contrast, distortion, chromatic abberations, vignette and etc. Would be nice to try them one-by-one and see is there are any differences in this scenario, but this way I will go bankrupt |
Most macro lenses perform very well in that respect. Of course vintage glass doesn't have the benefit of aspherical and ED-glass and more modern coatings. But for scanning you just need a flat field. On aps-c vignetting will not be a problem. You will be stopping down a bit for maximum sharpness anyway. Not a lot since diffraction kicks in fast on aps-c. You should probably just get the Nikkor. It has a very good reputation and is readily available. If you want a bit more working distance maybe the S-M-C Takumar 100mm F4 Macro. _________________ pentaxian |
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cooltouch
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 9096 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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cooltouch wrote:
I put together a slide and strip film duplicating setup using various extensions and adapters with my Nikon 55mm f/2.8 AIs macro lens for use with my APSC Sony NEX 7, the assortment which gave me almost exactly full frame (for the crop Sony that is) dupes, 6000 x 4000 pixels resolution. For some years previous, I was using an older Nikon 55mm f/3.5. But when I got the 55mm f/2.8, I decided I'd try it with my dupe setup, and I was actually surprised to see a noticeable improvement in resolution.
So I can highly recommend the Nikon Micro 55mm f/2.8 AIs for slide dupes. It's certainly worked well for me. _________________ Michael
My Gear List: http://michaelmcbroom.com/photo/gear.html
My Gallery: http://michaelmcbroom.com/gallery3/index.php/
My Flickr Page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/11308754@N08/albums
My Music: https://soundcloud.com/michaelmcbroom/albums
My Blog: http://michaelmcbroom.com/blogistan/ |
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caspert79
Joined: 31 Oct 2010 Posts: 3202 Location: The Netherlands
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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caspert79 wrote:
cooltouch wrote: |
I put together a slide and strip film duplicating setup using various extensions and adapters with my Nikon 55mm f/2.8 AIs macro lens for use with my APSC Sony NEX 7, the assortment which gave me almost exactly full frame (for the crop Sony that is) dupes, 6000 x 4000 pixels resolution. For some years previous, I was using an older Nikon 55mm f/3.5. But when I got the 55mm f/2.8, I decided I'd try it with my dupe setup, and I was actually surprised to see a noticeable improvement in resolution.
So I can highly recommend the Nikon Micro 55mm f/2.8 AIs for slide dupes. It's certainly worked well for me. |
Yes, this is a very good lens. And very affordable. |
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Blazer0ne
Joined: 12 Sep 2018 Posts: 836
Expire: 2024-12-07
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: MANUAL MACRO LENS |
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Blazer0ne wrote:
...
Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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e6filmuser
Joined: 12 Nov 2010 Posts: 849 Location: Reading UK
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
What you are trying to do is nothing to do with scanning. it is straightforward copying.
Scanning is akin to photocopying, where a document, or image, is copied via a moving lens. _________________ Dedicated to using manual focus lenses with digital. Equiped for photography from macro to panoramic & from ultra-wide to extreme telephoto. Mostly shooting outdoor macro. Experienced entomological taxonomist. Some knowledge of mushrooms. |
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michelb
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 Posts: 67 Location: Montréal area,Québec, Canada
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:23 am Post subject: |
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michelb wrote:
See
https://www.dyxum.com/dforum/finally-did-it-all-my-slides_topic80146_post926073.html?KW=slides#926073
That was my set-up _________________ Michel B
Interested in Minolta SLR's since 1971 |
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Knudsen
Joined: 16 Jun 2021 Posts: 115 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Knudsen wrote:
That's the nice one, Auto Bellows IV. I have the Bellows III and a different slide/film holder and diffuser that doesn't quite fit. I need to fabricate or get a Bellows II to make it work. _________________ ~Jon |
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e6filmuser
Joined: 12 Nov 2010 Posts: 849 Location: Reading UK
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:48 am Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
As you're copying from 35mm slide to the cropped sensor you need 1:2 reproduction, which more macro lenses do that will do 1:1.
The only lens on your list which I have is the Elmarit. It is very good but I found the Kiron 105mm a bit better for macro.
A cheap, but very sharp, option for a new lens is the Oshiro 60mm macro, available in various mounts, which will do 2:1 for macro.
If you want the ultimate get a Printing Nikkor 105.
If your slides are not in glass mounts allow for them bulging. Don't use maximum aperture.
For exposure use manual flash on a fixed setting. Any flash metering would adjust for exposure of some dark or light (by intent) slides.
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113545#113545
Here are some I did, using the Elmarit. Note that the film trannies (finest film available) lack some detail compared with modern digital:
https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16977
Hope this helps. _________________ Dedicated to using manual focus lenses with digital. Equiped for photography from macro to panoramic & from ultra-wide to extreme telephoto. Mostly shooting outdoor macro. Experienced entomological taxonomist. Some knowledge of mushrooms.
Last edited by e6filmuser on Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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philslizzy
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4744 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:48 am Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
Try an enlarger lens like the E-Rokkor or El-Nikkor _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014 Posts: 2965 Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I can say that the APO rodagon 75mm f4 1:1 will do marvellously well for this as, well, it is designed for it. They can be had for midrange in your budget pretty easily. I think I paid just under 200 for mine but that was after waiting a long time for an auction and apparently not many other folk were on the site at the time. _________________ photos are moments frozen in time |
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Blazer0ne
Joined: 12 Sep 2018 Posts: 836
Expire: 2024-12-07
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Blazer0ne wrote:
...
Last edited by Blazer0ne on Tue Feb 22, 2022 5:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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xaprb
Joined: 28 Jan 2021 Posts: 171
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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xaprb wrote:
I also shoot on Fujifilm APS-C digital bodies. I got irrationally interested in vintage macros for some reason at one point, and watched auctions, Goodwill, etc for a while very successfully. I was doing a lot of insects and flowers and so forth at the time. I got mint, sometimes new-in-box, copies of the following. However, despite the _reputation_ some of these lenses have, after using a bunch of them, I concluded that not very many people have really compared them directly to each other. People will write things in forum threads like "The X lens is astonishingly sharp, as sharp as any macro ever made!" or something. Certainly they are all very nice lenses and a joy to use, but I have multiple copies of some of them (or I have e.g. a couple brands of a lens that was sold under several brands, like a Panagor, a Vivitar, a Kiron, a Tokina...) and when you really shoot the same subject for a direct apples-to-apples comparison, and compare the resulting photos, and then compare to modern lenses, well, a lot of them aren't as good as forum threads would make you believe. Again, they can be super nice... but none of them matches my Fujifilm 80mm macro's sharpness. For that matter, I have the Fujifilm-mount version of the Laowa 65mm 2x macro and it also beats every single vintage macro I've used, by an obvious margin. (I think Laowa makes outstanding optics for a very good price. I also love the focusing mechanics of this lens. Genius.)
Here's the list of macros I own. I hope you're sitting down to read this so you don't fall over in surprise ;-) Also, if I bid against you in any of these auctions, my apologies...
* Vivitar 90mm f2.8
* Kiron 105mm f2.8
* Zeiss Makro-Planar 100mm f2
* Laowa 65mm f2.8
* Fujifilm 80mm f2.8
* Tamron SP 90mm f2.8, model 72B
* Soligor 100mm f2.8
* Vivitar Series 1 90-180mm f4.5
* Vivitar Series 1 28-90mm f2.8-3.5
* Cosina AF 100mm f3.5 ("plastic fantastic")
* Tokina 100mm f2.8, model M100 Pro D
* SMC Pentax-M 100mm f4
* Vivitar Series 1 105mm f2.5
* Vivitar 135mm f2.8 Close Focusing
* Tokina 90mm f2.5 "Bokina"
* Tamron SP 90mm f2.5, model 52B
* SMC Pentax-M 50mm f4
* Vivitar 55mm f2.8
* Nikon 55mm f2.8 AI-S
My top-list from that list would be the Fuji 80mm, the Laowa 65mm, the Bokina, the Zeiss, and the Nikon -- for different reasons (e.g. some are more versatile for general use like portraiture, some are small, some are gorgeously sharp, some are cheap...) and then I think the rest are honestly pretty similar: not optically astonishing in any particular way, very nice lenses, some not-that-great like the Vivitar 135 close-focus which is notably less sharp... but hard to pick favorites and all worth owning. I suspect most vintage macros are like that.
As another poster noted, cheap modern macros can be had: Oshiro, 7Artisans, Meike, Pergear, TTArtisan has one forthcoming... from looking at these it looks to me like they're mostly recycling the optics and mechanics of vintage macros. I wouldn't expect anything outstanding from most of them relative to one of the vintage lenses. The Laowa is the exception, I think, in that they're producing original optical designs. I'm a fan of some of these brands especially TTArtisan, but generally I wouldn't say the budget modern lenses are better value for money than a used lens from the 90s or something.
If you have questions about any specific few of them, or if you'd like any example shots of a couple to compare them, I'm happy to help as long as it's reasonably doable... I'd love to post a series of test shots of all of these against each other someday, but that would take a lot of time so it's not something I'm prepared to do right now. I've loaned the Laowa to my brother so I can't take any "scientific" sample shots with it right now. |
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e6filmuser
Joined: 12 Nov 2010 Posts: 849 Location: Reading UK
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
Never heard of it. I stopped reading after it said it took and hour to set it up.
With so many adjustments available with post-processing, who needs them up front? _________________ Dedicated to using manual focus lenses with digital. Equiped for photography from macro to panoramic & from ultra-wide to extreme telephoto. Mostly shooting outdoor macro. Experienced entomological taxonomist. Some knowledge of mushrooms. |
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e6filmuser
Joined: 12 Nov 2010 Posts: 849 Location: Reading UK
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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e6filmuser wrote:
xaprb wrote: |
Here's the list of macros I own. I hope you're sitting down to read this so you don't fall over in surprise Also, if I bid against you in any of these auctions, my apologies...
* Vivitar 90mm f2.8
* Kiron 105mm f2.8
* Zeiss Makro-Planar 100mm f2
* Laowa 65mm f2.8
* Fujifilm 80mm f2.8
* Tamron SP 90mm f2.8, model 72B
* Soligor 100mm f2.8
* Vivitar Series 1 90-180mm f4.5
* Vivitar Series 1 28-90mm f2.8-3.5
* Cosina AF 100mm f3.5 ("plastic fantastic")
* Tokina 100mm f2.8, model M100 Pro D
* SMC Pentax-M 100mm f4
* Vivitar Series 1 105mm f2.5
* Vivitar 135mm f2.8 Close Focusing
* Tokina 90mm f2.5 "Bokina"
* Tamron SP 90mm f2.5, model 52B
* SMC Pentax-M 50mm f4
* Vivitar 55mm f2.8
* Nikon 55mm f2.8 AI-S |
The majority of them are going to give quite a long effective FL on a crop sensor.
My macro (m4/3) tends to be environmental portraits and I like to show some of the background. That is what I like so much about the Laowa 25mm x2.5 to x 5, for high magnification, where the wide angle make the most of the shallow DOF. I tend to use my 50mm without the x2TC whenever I can and always for flowers. _________________ Dedicated to using manual focus lenses with digital. Equiped for photography from macro to panoramic & from ultra-wide to extreme telephoto. Mostly shooting outdoor macro. Experienced entomological taxonomist. Some knowledge of mushrooms. |
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Ray Parkhurst
Joined: 04 Jul 2011 Posts: 504 Location: Santa Clara, CA, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ray Parkhurst wrote:
Rodenstock 75mm Apo Rodagon D M1:1 _________________ ...See my Numismatic Photography website at: http://www.macrocoins.com
...Primary Studio Cameras: Sony A7Rm4 and Canon HRT2i
...Go-To studio lenses: Nikon 95mm and 105mm Printing-Nikkors; Schneider 85mm Macro-Varon; Nikon 5x, 10x, and 20x Measuring Microscope Objectives; Mitutoyo BD Plan Apo 50x Microscope Objective
...My Go-To Walkaround Lenses: Laowa 60mm Super Macro; Nikon 28-105D (in manual mode for macro); |
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yoyomaoz
Joined: 31 Jul 2018 Posts: 89 Location: Adelaide
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:26 am Post subject: |
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yoyomaoz wrote:
This page which I recently stumbled upon gives a useful over view of the resolving power of various macro lenses.
http://www.coinimaging.com/Lens_tests.html
Though I seldom shoot macro subjects I do own a few macro lenses of various brands and focal lengths - mainly because they tend to be sharp (by definition) and provide quite good bokeh even when shot at normal ranges.
One that I especially like (and own) is the Micro Nikkor AIS 55mm f2.8. I own this lens and have always thought it to be good. Now that I look at its MTF curves I see why. All I can say is WOW.
http://www.coinimaging.com/nikon_55microais.html _________________ Peter M
Flickr me: https://www.flickr.com/photos/life_in_shadows/
Articles on Style and Mood in Photography
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2014/11/24/character-style-and-mood-in-photography-by-peter-maynard/
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2014/12/02/character-style-and-mood-in-photography-part-2-by-peter-maynard/
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2017/01/10/character-style-and-mood-in-photography-part-3-by-peter-maynard/ |
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kebuldaj
Joined: 13 Feb 2021 Posts: 12
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 6:13 am Post subject: |
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kebuldaj wrote:
D1N0 wrote: |
Most macro lenses perform very well in that respect. Of course vintage glass doesn't have the benefit of aspherical and ED-glass and more modern coatings. But for scanning you just need a flat field. On aps-c vignetting will not be a problem. You will be stopping down a bit for maximum sharpness anyway. Not a lot since diffraction kicks in fast on aps-c. You should probably just get the Nikkor. It has a very good reputation and is readily available. If you want a bit more working distance maybe the S-M-C Takumar 100mm F4 Macro. |
Thanks for your ideas, seems a lot of people recommend Nikkor 55mm AI-S, I believe it's a fine lens. But now I try to put the whole picture logically: in the beggining the idea to take vintage full frame macro lens came while hoping to have future proof setup, as if someday I would go with larger sensor, I would have macro lens ready. But let's say Nikkor is 1:2 macro lens, and for current APSC setup is fine, but if we take fullframe camera, then I need 1:1 macro to copy 35mm film properly..
So seems I have to think about 1:1 macro ready for fullframe sensor, or just can use fine modern APSC Laowa 65mm and forget all this future-proof thing
...and again could it be possible that some native 1:2 macro with extension tube can do better than native 1:1 macro. How much IQ depends on using extension tubes?
In general I understand that now we talk more about theoretical/general superiority of macro lenses, as somebody mentioned, any of these lenses will fit good slide copying task |
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