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Mamiya, Komine and Soligor - Who Made What?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:43 pm    Post subject: Mamiya, Komine and Soligor - Who Made What? Reply with quote
A puzzle.
I have a Mamiya 2.8/28.
There is also a Soligor 2.8/35 that resembles it.
According to the serial number of the Soligor (H667774) it is made by Komine.
Soo the though occurs to me - did Komine make lenses for Mamiya?
Did Mamiya make lenses for Soligor - and is the H6XXXXX... serial a furphy .......
Here are the two lenses that aroused the interest:

The Mamiya:




The Soligor:



PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've often wondered why we don't hear more from people in Japan. While it is getting late to find people who were involved in the manufacture at the time, it is still possible. I for one would appreciate if I knew someone was soliciting information from older, retired workers from the manufacturers.

I can't answer your questions, but I can ask some more. I wonder just how much any of the manufacturers did themselves. Were the optical companies also machinists that made the casings? Did they do it all, including assembly? Or is it possible there were independent suppliers of various parts? I could easily believe that face plates, diaphragm mechanisms, and casings were provided by outside specialists. I can also believe that some of the larger manufacturers did everything in-house, but did Komine and other smaller concerns make all the necessary parts themselves? This is an especially good question when you consider how many different names their lenses displayed. If what I suggest was true, or at least with certain of them, it could render our efforts to make connections and draw conclusions futile.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In this case, the 28/2.8, the same lens (verified by disassembly and examination of elements, etc.) was made and sold in a T4 mount (presumably Tokina item), and also branded as a Sun. I have examples of both, plus a third fixed mount Soligor thats the same.

http://forum.mflenses.com/who-made-these-28-2-8-sun-or-tokina-t15298,highlight,%2Bsun+%2Btokina.html


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
In this case, the 28/2.8, the same lens (verified by disassembly and examination of elements, etc.) was made and sold in a T4 mount (presumably Tokina item), and also branded as a Sun. I have examples of both, plus a third fixed mount Soligor thats the same.

http://forum.mflenses.com/who-made-these-28-2-8-sun-or-tokina-t15298,highlight,%2Bsun+%2Btokina.html


The thot plickens ........
We now have Sun, Tokina, Komine and Mamiya - all sharing a similar design
Hmmmm......
OH


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As for design, it stands to reason that similar-vintage lenses would look similar. If one company has a popular product, everyone copies it. For instance, basically every car on the road today looks somewhat similar. Someone invents a popular design (for instance, a red ring around the front of a lens to show off that people can spend a lot for not much more and everyone throws some color ring around the front of their lenses.)


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
David wrote:
As for design, it stands to reason that similar-vintage lenses would look similar. If one company has a popular product, everyone copies it. For instance, basically every car on the road today looks somewhat similar. Someone invents a popular design (for instance, a red ring around the front of a lens to show off that people can spend a lot for not much more and everyone throws some color ring around the front of their lenses.)


Yes, of course.
The point here is, that all these lenses share more than just the basics, and have many common design features that other similar lenses do not.
This may indicate a common manufacturer, or at the very least a common pool of supplied parts.
Hence the oft repeated questions about lineage that we need someone from that era Japan to put to rest.
It is still a fair bet that these particular lenses share so much in common that a shared parts pool or shared manufacturing base would be expected.
We may never figure it out, but it would be grand to know nonetheless.
OH


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
In this case, the 28/2.8, the same lens (verified by disassembly and examination of elements, etc.) was made and sold in a T4 mount (presumably Tokina item), and also branded as a Sun. I have examples of both, plus a third fixed mount Soligor thats the same.

http://forum.mflenses.com/who-made-these-28-2-8-sun-or-tokina-t15298,highlight,%2Bsun+%2Btokina.html


The thot plickens ........
We now have Sun, Tokina, Komine and Mamiya - all sharing a similar design
Hmmmm......
OH


I didn't see Komine with similar design. Do you have a link to it?
These Mamiya, Soligor, Sears and Sun budged lenses are made by Tokina. The Sun budged one is a kind of mystery since Sun had its own 28mm lens.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
In this case, the 28/2.8, the same lens (verified by disassembly and examination of elements, etc.) was made and sold in a T4 mount (presumably Tokina item), and also branded as a Sun. I have examples of both, plus a third fixed mount Soligor thats the same.

http://forum.mflenses.com/who-made-these-28-2-8-sun-or-tokina-t15298,highlight,%2Bsun+%2Btokina.html


The thot plickens ........
We now have Sun, Tokina, Komine and Mamiya - all sharing a similar design
Hmmmm......
OH


I didn't see Komine with similar design. Do you have a link to it?
These Mamiya, Soligor, Sears and Sun budged lenses are made by Tokina. The Sun budged one is a kind of mystery since Sun had its own 28mm lens.

The second lens shown above is a Soligor.
It has serial number H6XXXXX which the Soligor thread indicates is Komine made - here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/soligor-12-8-f28mm-21and-versions-t30866,start,180.html
Hope this helps
OH


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
dimitrygo wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
In this case, the 28/2.8, the same lens (verified by disassembly and examination of elements, etc.) was made and sold in a T4 mount (presumably Tokina item), and also branded as a Sun. I have examples of both, plus a third fixed mount Soligor thats the same.

http://forum.mflenses.com/who-made-these-28-2-8-sun-or-tokina-t15298,highlight,%2Bsun+%2Btokina.html


The thot plickens ........
We now have Sun, Tokina, Komine and Mamiya - all sharing a similar design
Hmmmm......
OH


I didn't see Komine with similar design. Do you have a link to it?
These Mamiya, Soligor, Sears and Sun budged lenses are made by Tokina. The Sun budged one is a kind of mystery since Sun had its own 28mm lens.

The second lens shown above is a Soligor.
It has serial number H6XXXXX which the Soligor thread indicates is Komine made - here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/soligor-12-8-f28mm-21and-versions-t30866,start,180.html
Hope this helps
OH


I see. I think H numbered Soligors are mixed bag. This one for instance is not Komine.


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The case with these is not really that they are similar, but that under the skin they are identical.

Its that once disassembled its clear they are the same. Parts can be swapped from one to another including the actual lens elements.
Unless these various makers were using the same optical formula precisely, plus all the same internal spacing and fittings, this would not be possible.

Small lens makers of course ordered lens elements from other sources. Making and grinding lens elements is a specialized business. Even large lens makers did the same; Nikon etc. did not always make their own lens elements. Nittoh/Komine interestingly was one of these lens element suppliers, and they still manufacture optical elements for lens makers.

http://www.nittohkogaku.co.jp/english/


PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
In this case, the 28/2.8, the same lens (verified by disassembly and examination of elements, etc.) was made and sold in a T4 mount (presumably Tokina item), and also branded as a Sun. I have examples of both, plus a third fixed mount Soligor thats the same.

http://forum.mflenses.com/who-made-these-28-2-8-sun-or-tokina-t15298,highlight,%2Bsun+%2Btokina.html


The thot plickens ........
We now have Sun, Tokina, Komine and Mamiya - all sharing a similar design
Hmmmm......
OH


I didn't see Komine with similar design. Do you have a link to it?
These Mamiya, Soligor, Sears and Sun budged lenses are made by Tokina. The Sun budged one is a kind of mystery since Sun had its own 28mm lens.

+1 all above Tokina made, also sold as Rikenon http://forum.mflenses.com/sears-2-8-28-m42-t66111.html

Here early SUN 2.8/28mm:


PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just got Auto Mamiya/Sekkor 55/1.4

The rear part construction, is absolutely similar to Chinon 50/1.7.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
CuriousOne wrote:
Just got Auto Mamiya/Sekkor 55/1.4

The rear part construction, is absolutely similar to Chinon 50/1.7.


Have I missed something? I thought it was understood that the Mamiya-Sekor 1.4/55 was made by Tomioka.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Have no idea how it was understood and by whom, but looking at mechanical parts of these two lenses (55/1.4 mamiya and 55/1.7 Chinon, I see too many mechanical similarities that can be attributed to copying or general practice.

How the mount is attached to lens body, how the aperture lock mechanism is designed, location of helicoid, protective collar and it's mounting style, etc etc, just can't be designed by different engineers.



PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
CuriousOne wrote:
Have no idea how it was understood and by whom, but looking at mechanical parts of these two lenses (55/1.4 mamiya and 55/1.7 Chinon, I see too many mechanical similarities that can be attributed to copying or general practice.

How the mount is attached to lens body, how the aperture lock mechanism is designed, location of helicoid, protective collar and it's mounting style, etc etc, just can't be designed by different engineers.



I think the Chinon's mount is one piece of metal while Mamiya's one is made of 2 parts (the outer ring is a separate part).
Positions of A/M switch are different, although I think on older versions of Chinon-like lenses the A/M switch was positioned like on Mamiya.
But after all I wouldn't be surprised too much if both these barrels were designed and made by the same vendor, probably Chinon.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Chinon was also known to use Tomioka.
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