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Lens variety on a budget
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:21 pm    Post subject: Lens variety on a budget Reply with quote
Hello,

I own a few inexpensive manual focus lenses:

Helios 44-2 and 44M
Jupiter 11 and 11a
Pentacon 50mm, 29mm, and 200mm
Industar 50-2
Vivitar auto 28mm

and I am happy with them and they all have certain characteristics. I was wondering if there are any other inexpensive lenses
that I could buy that have different qualities to increase my collection............and feed my LBA while I go through lean times. Laughing
Seriously, I am happy with what I have, but I am curious about other lenses. Any ideas?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Okay, I'll be brutally honest.

In 135mm lenses, it is very hard to do better than the Jupiter-11 or -11a without spending several times the cost, stick with those until you get bored of them. A good copy is not less good than a CZJ 4/135 Sonnar.

In 50mm lenses, the Helios is a good one, it isn't as contrasty or flare resistant as some more modern lenses but those are minor points. It has excellent bokeh, strong colours and is sharp at all apertures. However, 50mm lenses are so common and cheap, it is fine to try many and just keep your favourites. Personally, despite trying over 30 50mm lenses (at least) I still keep a copy of the good old Helios. The I-50 is a very good lens, very sharp, at f8 it is always razor sharp. The Pentacon 50mm is also a good one, I like it's bokeh and strong colours, definitely worth keeping.

200mm lenses, the Pentacon is the best in it's price range imho, and to do better than it is not easy without spending several times the cost of the Pentacon, like the Jupiter-11 I'd stick with this lens until you get bored of it.

Wide angles, the Pentacon 29mm is a good one, they vary in quality a bit, from mediocre to great. Even the great copies are weak in the corners wide open and it's a lens that needs to be used stopped down to give it's best. It also needs a hood as it's a bit flare prone. No idea about the Vivitar 28mm, there are many versions of it and Vivitars vary wildly in quality.

The main thing I would look to add is a wider lens, a 24mm would be nice, or a 21mm is even better. Neither is often cheap though. 24mm, the best cheap one is the Cimko made one that is seen in many brands such as Clubman and Ensinor. Sigma is good too, but not quite as good as the Cinko imho. The Tokina 24mm is really good, also seen as a Hoya but not so common and not quite as cheap. 21mm are hard to find cheap, the old Soligor 21mm is the one I tend to see cheap, it's a Tokina I think.

My advice would be to save your cash until you can afford a really good ultrawide. The Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 20mm is cheap for it's performance, look for an abused looking one with decent glass in Exakta mount as that will be the cheapest variant.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You've already got some classic lenses that I guess most of get when we begin to get interested in MF lenses, and I don't think I'm unusual in still having a few of those on your list - and still using them.
I also agree with Ian that the 24mm Cimko ( Clubman and Elsinor among other brand names ) is an excellent lens.
Other cheap M42 lenses worth considering ? I like the few Chinon's Soligors and Carl Zeiss Jena's that I've got. There are sought after CZJ's that go for a lot of money, but most of the cheaper ones are still good, they just get compared to the 'great' CZJ lenses.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
An alternative to your 200 could be the jupiter 21. Probably not better (I never had a pentacon 200), but very good and cheap.

I second Ian's suggestion to expand a little the focal range towards the wide side, since all the lenses you listed have excellent price-quality ratio, and to see serious improvements over them, you should spend some more money.
And, as an uwa, I'd suggest the MC Mir 20 M, if you find it at reasonable price. I don't know how much they go for these days, but I paid mine around € 80 (one of my most expensive lenses so far), and I'm really happy with it.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Okay, I'll be brutally honest.

In 135mm lenses, it is very hard to do better than the Jupiter-11 or -11a without spending several times the cost, stick with those until you get bored of them. A good copy is not less good than a CZJ 4/135 Sonnar.

In 50mm lenses, the Helios is a good one, it isn't as contrasty or flare resistant as some more modern lenses but those are minor points. It has excellent bokeh, strong colours and is sharp at all apertures. However, 50mm lenses are so common and cheap, it is fine to try many and just keep your favourites. Personally, despite trying over 30 50mm lenses (at least) I still keep a copy of the good old Helios. The I-50 is a very good lens, very sharp, at f8 it is always razor sharp. The Pentacon 50mm is also a good one, I like it's bokeh and strong colours, definitely worth keeping.

200mm lenses, the Pentacon is the best in it's price range imho, and to do better than it is not easy without spending several times the cost of the Pentacon, like the Jupiter-11 I'd stick with this lens until you get bored of it.

Wide angles, the Pentacon 29mm is a good one, they vary in quality a bit, from mediocre to great. Even the great copies are weak in the corners wide open and it's a lens that needs to be used stopped down to give it's best. It also needs a hood as it's a bit flare prone. No idea about the Vivitar 28mm, there are many versions of it and Vivitars vary wildly in quality.

The main thing I would look to add is a wider lens, a 24mm would be nice, or a 21mm is even better. Neither is often cheap though. 24mm, the best cheap one is the Cimko made one that is seen in many brands such as Clubman and Ensinor. Sigma is good too, but not quite as good as the Cinko imho. The Tokina 24mm is really good, also seen as a Hoya but not so common and not quite as cheap. 21mm are hard to find cheap, the old Soligor 21mm is the one I tend to see cheap, it's a Tokina I think.

My advice would be to save your cash until you can afford a really good ultrawide. The Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 20mm is cheap for it's performance, look for an abused looking one with decent glass in Exakta mount as that will be the cheapest variant.


Thanks for the advise.
I remember seeing a comparison of many different 135mm lenses and and the results were very close. I am glad the Jupiters
get your approval, I like them a lot.
I am mostly thinking of 50mm because the Pentacon and Helios both seem to have very distinctive characteristics.
The Industar is different. I like it, but the small size is a little troublesome. So I agree with your idea to try more.
I will keep my eye open for a 24mm. In Budapest there are some camera stores that sell second hand lenses fairly cheap and
some pretty good ones too.

My Helios 44-2 is my favorite lens so far.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The CZJ recommendation is a good one, especially living in Hungary, you should be able to find them locally at decent prices. Optics are always high quality but the mechanics can be ropey, check for working aperture, they often stick, but they can be repaired, and Attila has a few repairmen in Budapest. Also check for stiff focus, the grease they used turns hard after all these years and often they can be very stiff to focus, again, it can be fixed, often you can do it yourself by squirting some lighter fluid (petrol) into the helicoid.

Here's some comments on CZJ lenses to look out for

Flektogon 20mm - definitely take one if you see it at a good price.
Flektogon 25mm - also a very good lens, but the 20mm is slightly better, worth taking if seen at a good price.
Flektogon 35mm - there are two versions, the earlier 2.8 and the later 2.4, the 2.4 is better but also more expensive.
Pancolar 1.8/50 and 2/50 - the 1.8 is later and slightly better, both are worth having, a bit better than your Pentacon 50mm but not by a huge amount
Tessar 2.8/50 and 3.5/50 - great lenses, very sharp, nice character, but only worth having if cheap as you already have the Industar copy
Biotar 2/58 - unless you see it very cheap, I'd pass as you already have the Helios and it's a copy
Sonnar 2/85 - great lens, if you see one, take it, same applies to the Russian copy of it, the J9, there is no better 85mm lens available without spending a lot more money.
Biometar 2.8/80 - very good lens on film, not quite so good on digital, the Sonanr 2/85 is probably a better bet.
Sonnar 4/135 and 3.5/135, I prefer the earlier f4 version but they are all really good, really sharp, you have the j-11 copy so you can skip this one.
Sonnar 2.8/180 - great lens, if you see one for a good price, take it, better than the Pentaon 200 but much bigger and heavier, so good to have both for different occasions.

Look for abused looking ones that still have good glass, and Exakta mount ones are cheaper than M42. Avoid Praktina mount ones, no adapters are available.

I also highly recommend the Meyer Primagon 4.5/35, Primotar 3.5/50 and Trioplan 2.8/100. The later Pentacon/Meyer 2.8/100 is also worth having.

Also look out for Russian lenses, they are usually copies of old Zeiss designs. The Mir-1b is a copy of the Flektogon 2.8/35, there are some other Mir wide angles too, all worth having. I also highly recommend the Zenitar 1.7/50 and 2//50 lenses, they replaced the Helios-44 and are sharper with modern multicoatings, really good lenses, among the very sharpest 50mm lenses available.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the details.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No problem, good luck in your search.

Biggest tip I would give is to avoid buying many cheap lenses and instead be more carefully targeted in your purchases. Th cost of several cheap lenses is the same as one great one and I wish I'd just bought a few great ones instead of trying a large number of cheap ones first.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Depends on what is your camera. If you have Canon DSLR, then m42 lenses that were suggested are the way to go. If you have mirrorless, it's a different ball game, IMHO all those Jena/Meyer lenses are not bargains.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
Depends on what is your camera. If you have Canon DSLR, then m42 lenses that were suggested are the way to go. If you have mirrorless, it's a different ball game, IMHO all those Jena/Meyer lenses are not bargains.


What about lenses with the PK mount?
Also any Japanese lenses that could be a good choice?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In PK mount, Pentax and Ricoh. Avoid the Pk mount 'Takumars' they are the budget lenses and not great, certainly much worse than the classic M42 Takumars. The earlier K series lenses are a bit better than the later M and A series ones, they have better build quality and slightly better optics. Many of the Ricoh lenses are actually Pentax lenses.

Cosina also made a whole range of PK mount lenses but the two or three I tried were not great, low in contrast with poor colours.

The Pentax and Ricoh lenses are cheap so they are the ones to go for in PK mount.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For macro, cheap bellows and a 75-135mm enlarger lens will easily give you almost all thats needed.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
uddhava wrote:
fermy wrote:
Depends on what is your camera. If you have Canon DSLR, then m42 lenses that were suggested are the way to go. If you have mirrorless, it's a different ball game, IMHO all those Jena/Meyer lenses are not bargains.


What about lenses with the PK mount?
Also any Japanese lenses that could be a good choice?


Best mounts are the mounts that can not be used on DSLR without serious modification, which means Canon FD, Minolta MD, Konica AR for SLR mounts and Contax RF, Contax G for RF mounts, although no obvious bargains in Contax G nowadays, just very high quality lenses. Pentax lenses are still relatively expensive, I don't think the quality is any better (or any worse) than Konica or Canon, just a matter of taste really. I prefer Canon FD because they are most common, which keeps the prices down. Say one can realistically get FD 85/1.8 for 100-120 Euros, good luck getting Pentax 85mm/1.8 for that price!

Edit: Oops, I just realized that you were asking for the best lenses you can adapt to PK. Doh! Then, add some Revuenons and Rikohs to the m42 lenses that people suggested. Their fast normals are definitely good and bargains, slower than f2 lenses not so much. Also OM Zuikos are usable on PK AFAIK, all good lenses.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="fermy"][quote="uddhava"]
fermy wrote:


Edit: Oops, I just realized that you were asking for the best lenses you can adapt to PK. Doh! Then, add some Revuenons and Rikohs to the m42 lenses that people suggested. Their fast normals are definitely good and bargains, slower than f2 lenses not so much. Also OM Zuikos are usable on PK AFAIK, all good lenses.


Sorry. I should have mentioned I have a Canon DSLR. I was wondering about adapting a PK mount lens to that.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
You've already got some classic lenses that I guess most of get when we begin to get interested in MF lenses, and I don't think I'm unusual in still having a few of those on your list - and still using them.
I also agree with Ian that the 24mm Cimko ( Clubman and Elsinor among other brand names ) is an excellent lens.
Other cheap M42 lenses worth considering ? I like the few Chinon's Soligors and Carl Zeiss Jena's that I've got. There are sought after CZJ's that go for a lot of money, but most of the cheaper ones are still good, they just get compared to the 'great' CZJ lenses.


Aanything wrote:
An alternative to your 200 could be the jupiter 21. Probably not better (I never had a pentacon 200), but very good and cheap.

I second Ian's suggestion to expand a little the focal range towards the wide side, since all the lenses you listed have excellent price-quality ratio, and to see serious improvements over them, you should spend some more money.
And, as an uwa, I'd suggest the MC Mir 20 M, if you find it at reasonable price. I don't know how much they go for these days, but I paid mine around € 80 (one of my most expensive lenses so far), and I'm really happy with it.


Somehow I did not see these posts. Thanks for the information.
I am glad to hear I have decent(for the price) lenses and that a wider lens would be a good addition. I was also wondering about lenses that are good quality, but have different characteristics than what I have(the Helios and Pentacon for example)? Or maybe there is not much difference in the other lenses till I spend a lot more money. It seems everyone has there favorite lenses and I was curious how they are different from what I have.

Last edited by uddhava on Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:11 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tomorrow morning we will have photo fair at Ferencvárosi Müvelődési Központ, I rare visit it due hard to find any rarity, but cheap stuff will be there for sure visit it early if you can from 9am at least. Good stuff sell fast.

Location:

http://goo.gl/maps/gJ635

Entry fee 400 HUF.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
Tomorrow morning we will have photo fair at Ferencvárosi Müvelődési Központ, I rare visit it due hard to find any rarity, but cheap stuff will be there for sure visit it early if you can from 9am at least. Good stuff sell fast.

Location:

http://goo.gl/maps/gJ635

Entry fee 400 HUF.


Thanks. Smile
Does it start at 9:00?


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
fermy wrote:
Depends on what is your camera. If you have Canon DSLR, then m42 lenses that were suggested are the way to go. If you have mirrorless, it's a different ball game, IMHO all those Jena/Meyer lenses are not bargains.


can you please explain this more in details...

I thought always that a good lens is a good lens and not depending on the mount... or the camera...

Thanks!


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RAART wrote:
fermy wrote:
Depends on what is your camera. If you have Canon DSLR, then m42 lenses that were suggested are the way to go. [b]If you have mirrorless, it's a different ball game[/b], IMHO all those Jena/Meyer lenses are not bargains.


can you please explain more in details this please.

I thought always that a good lens is a good lens and not depending on the mount...

Thanks!


Good lens is a good lens, but a good lens is not necessarily a bargain. Price is also a part of equation, and m42 prices are relatively high now.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
uddhava wrote:
Attila wrote:
Tomorrow morning we will have photo fair at Ferencvárosi Müvelődési Központ, I rare visit it due hard to find any rarity, but cheap stuff will be there for sure visit it early if you can from 9am at least. Good stuff sell fast.

Location:

http://goo.gl/maps/gJ635

Entry fee 400 HUF.


Thanks. Smile
Does it start at 9:00?


I remember for 9 am , yes. Sellers there from 7 am and exchange , buy , sell stuff from each other. So you will be not too early at 9 even if I remember wrongly.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RAART wrote:
fermy wrote:
Depends on what is your camera. If you have Canon DSLR, then m42 lenses that were suggested are the way to go. If you have mirrorless, it's a different ball game, IMHO all those Jena/Meyer lenses are not bargains.


can you please explain this more in details...

I thought always that a good lens is a good lens and not depending on the mount... or the camera...

Thanks!


As Fermy says, price.

Maybe the best example is the M42 Zeiss Jenna lenses versus the Exakta versions.

Do an evilbay search for "jena flektogon m42" and "jena flektogon exakta", they're optically the same lenses from the same company but the M42 versions will fit on a LOT more cameras, i.e. bigger demand and bigger price.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What a shock! Flektogon prices are extreme! Is the Mir 1 version (37mm) as good as the Flek (35mm)? It is said to be a copy, but I have never tried either one of them....


PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The CZJ recommendation is a good one, especially living in Hungary, you should be able to find them locally at decent prices. Optics are always high quality but the mechanics can be ropey, check for working aperture, they often stick, but they can be repaired, and Attila has a few repairmen in Budapest. Also check for stiff focus, the grease they used turns hard after all these years and often they can be very stiff to focus, again, it can be fixed, often you can do it yourself by squirting some lighter fluid (petrol) into the helicoid.

Here's some comments on CZJ lenses to look out for

Flektogon 20mm - definitely take one if you see it at a good price.
Flektogon 25mm - also a very good lens, but the 20mm is slightly better, worth taking if seen at a good price.
Flektogon 35mm - there are two versions, the earlier 2.8 and the later 2.4, the 2.4 is better but also more expensive.
Pancolar 1.8/50 and 2/50 - the 1.8 is later and slightly better, both are worth having, a bit better than your Pentacon 50mm but not by a huge amount
Tessar 2.8/50 and 3.5/50 - great lenses, very sharp, nice character, but only worth having if cheap as you already have the Industar copy
Biotar 2/58 - unless you see it very cheap, I'd pass as you already have the Helios and it's a copy
Sonnar 2/85 - great lens, if you see one, take it, same applies to the Russian copy of it, the J9, there is no better 85mm lens available without spending a lot more money.
Biometar 2.8/80 - very good lens on film, not quite so good on digital, the Sonanr 2/85 is probably a better bet.
Sonnar 4/135 and 3.5/135, I prefer the earlier f4 version but they are all really good, really sharp, you have the j-11 copy so you can skip this one.
Sonnar 2.8/180 - great lens, if you see one for a good price, take it, better than the Pentaon 200 but much bigger and heavier, so good to have both for different occasions.

Look for abused looking ones that still have good glass, and Exakta mount ones are cheaper than M42. Avoid Praktina mount ones, no adapters are available.

I also highly recommend the Meyer Primagon 4.5/35, Primotar 3.5/50 and Trioplan 2.8/100. The later Pentacon/Meyer 2.8/100 is also worth having.

Also look out for Russian lenses, they are usually copies of old Zeiss designs. The Mir-1b is a copy of the Flektogon 2.8/35, there are some other Mir wide angles too, all worth having. I also highly recommend the Zenitar 1.7/50 and 2//50 lenses, they replaced the Helios-44 and are sharper with modern multicoatings, really good lenses, among the very sharpest 50mm lenses available.


I know this is kind of an old topic, but what would be considered good prices for the Zeiss lenses you mention? For the 20-21mm would Nikon or OM lenses be good choices also? Considering I have a 28mm lens already are the 20mm lenses definately the better choice in order to have variety? Thanks anyone. Sorry for my lack of knowledge.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For Flektogon 4/20 maybe something around 100-150 Eur.
There is one for sale on our local forum for 160 - if you are interested i can buy it for you.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
std wrote:
For Flektogon 4/20 maybe something around 100-150 Eur.
There is one for sale on our local forum for 160 - if you are interested i can buy it for you.


Thanks for the offer, but I don't have that much money to spend now.

BTW didn't you want me to tell you about an exakta to eos adapter when I purchased it? It works
fine, holding the lens in firmly and also reaches infinity as far as I can tell(not so experienced). It is thin,
I think in order to reach infinity on the Canon and that makes it a little awkward to attach the lens to it.
It feels like I'm going to cut myself on it. I am happy with it.
I bought the one without the chip, here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120931329370?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
Here is the post I wrote about the purchase, sorry for the poor photos.
http://forum.mflenses.com/exakta-to-eos-adapter-plus-lenses-t56430.html
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