Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

Kiron and Komine Vivitars
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Kiron and Komine Vivitars Reply with quote
I am often amazed at the detailed knowledge of vintage lenses among those who participate here.

After some browsing on this forum, I noticed that Vivitar lenses made by Kino Precision (S/N starting with 22) and Komine (S/N starting with 28 ) are often mentioned favorably -- perhaps more so than Vivitar lenses made by other companies.

Is it the sense among Vivitar fans that Kiron and Komine made Vivitars are especially worth looking for? Or preferable in some way to the others? I know that the Series 1 Vivitars are generally well considered, but most of the Vivitars I've found lately, were the "ordinary" ones (not Series 1), and quite a few of those seem to be either Kino or Komine made.

Kino Precision did sell their lenses under their own name. I have a near mint example of the Kiron 28mm f2.8 (O/OM mount), but I have never seen a Komine lens marked as such. Did they sell under the Komine name?

Charles


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There were some Kominar lenses, but not the ones sold as Vivitar. From what I can see, there is still some dispute as to who Komine were, and whether the 28x lenses were actually made by them at all. That's part of the fun of MF Smile


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kino and Komine are especially well thought of as they were Vivitar's chosen manufacturers for the early Series One lenses. Both companies had been suppliers to Ponder & Best (Vivitar) before Series One was introduced. Tokina was also a regular supplier to Ponder & Best but only an occasional supplier of Series One spec lenses.

The Komine name seems to be connected only with Vivitar and my opinion is it's an alias of Nittoh Kogaku K. K. There was a line of X-Kominar lenses that seem to be exclusively in Fujica "X" bayonet mount. Nittoh's web site shows several of their products that were manufactured with Fuji and Olympus names. http://www.nittohkogaku.co.jp/english/focus/history.php I have owned a Mamiya camera that was equipped with a Kominar lens.

As for the desirability of Kino or "Komine" made lenses over those made by Tokina, Tamron, Cimko, Makina, Komura, Kobori, Sigma, Sun and others, my opinion is that it's the individual lens that matters more than a manufacturers entire line.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Kiron and Komine Vivitars Reply with quote
cbaldeck wrote:
Is it the sense among Vivitar fans that Kiron and Komine made Vivitars are especially worth looking for?


Honestly, I don't think any Vivitars (with the odd exception) are worth looking for. Simply because they aren't as good as the major manufacturers lenses. I'd take a Pentax, Olympus, Nikon, Minolta, Konica etc over a Vivitar any day. Also, Vivitar's QC was far behind the major makers so there is the risk of getting a real dog. I just don't see the sense in buying Vivitar when you can pick up better lenses by the major makers for similar prices. For example, the Vivitar Close Focus 2.8/28 is a good lens but you can have a better lens for the same sort of money, the Konica and Minolta 3.5/28s are both significantly better and cost the same sort of prices, and the chances of getting a lemon copy from the major makers is a lot smaller than with Vivitar, I had two copies of the Vivitar CF 2.8/28, one was good, the other was crap.


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Kiron and Komine Vivitars Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
For example, the Vivitar Close Focus 2.8/28 is a good lens but you can have a better lens for the same sort of money, the Konica and Minolta 3.5/28s are both significantly better and cost the same sort of prices, and the chances of getting a lemon copy from the major makers is a lot smaller than with Vivitar, I had two copies of the Vivitar CF 2.8/28, one was good, the other was crap.


Easy for you NEX guys to say Wink you must remember life as a Canon shooter...


PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, Konica and Minolta are no good to Canon shooters, but Nikon, Olympus, Pentax etc are.

But I take your point though, Konica and Minolta were probably poor examples to chose due to their unsuitability for use on DSLRs.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In the world of MFlenses and for many of us too young to have been through the thick of the 60-70s..80s camera scene, I think vivitar and especially Komine/Kiron/Tokina made vivitars represent of selection of third party glass that is still reasonably common amongst the ocean of ambiguous lenses and a solid, can't go (too) wrong choice.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd rate Kiron & Komine lenses from the few that I have as good lenses. The 28-90 zoom being one of my favourites, followed by the 70-210/2.8-4.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a few really old Vivitars, the 135/2.8 and 200/3.5, both Komine made with all-metal focusing rings. Both feature good construction quality and are built very solid, nearly up to the level of Super Takumars of the time. Their optical performance is very good even by today's standards, and excellent by the then-prevaling quality standards. Also, a Kiron-made all-metal Vivitar 28/2.5 that I have is no slouch either.

That, compared to many, many lenses of even much later periods, with MC glass and modern mounts. I had over a dozen 28mm, 200mm and 135mm lenses made by unknown companies that were plain crap or at best mediocre. Those lenses were manufactured much later than the Vivitars that I mentioned, featuring MC and looked much smaller and more modern than the ancient Vivitars, but image quality (and build quality!) was simply not comparable.

So there really is something in those old Kiron and Komine made Vivitars worth looking. Those lenses weren't bad by their own merits, and were an excellent choice compared to aftermarket alternatives.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have 2 Komine made Vivitars, a Series 1 70-210mm f2.8-4 and a dime a dozen 200 f3.5, both are very good.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:


So there really is something in those old Kiron and Komine made Vivitars worth looking. Those lenses weren't bad by their own merits, and were an excellent choice compared to aftermarket alternatives.


Gosh I hope you're right! I took a total flyer yesterday on an old Vivitar 75-205mm zoom which is not even a Series 1!

Sometimes you roll the dice and hope they don't come up snake eyes. Cool

Lens is likely to arrive around Christmas. Could turn out to be a lump of coal. Sad


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
I have a few really old Vivitars, the 135/2.8 and 200/3.5, both Komine made with all-metal focusing rings. Both feature good construction quality and are built very solid, nearly up to the level of Super Takumars of the time. Their optical performance is very good even by today's standards, and excellent by the then-prevaling quality standards. Also, a Kiron-made all-metal Vivitar 28/2.5 that I have is no slouch either.

That, compared to many, many lenses of even much later periods, with MC glass and modern mounts. I had over a dozen 28mm, 200mm and 135mm lenses made by unknown companies that were plain crap or at best mediocre. Those lenses were manufactured much later than the Vivitars that I mentioned, featuring MC and looked much smaller and more modern than the ancient Vivitars, but image quality (and build quality!) was simply not comparable.

So there really is something in those old Kiron and Komine made Vivitars worth looking. Those lenses weren't bad by their own merits, and were an excellent choice compared to aftermarket alternatives.


Usually Komine & Kiron were the top of quality for independent lens maker
AT THAT TIME (1975>1990)
    sigma quality was much lower
    Tokina quality was decreasing (tokina was the best quality (apar with komine) when other makers were insignifiant (look at the vivitar/soligor tokina (t4..) which AT THEIR TIME were top quality)
    Some other manufacturers could have gems : Ozone , Makinon, Kobori but the quality wass more uncertain

For a precise comparaison in 1985 i made a comparative test of Zuiko 35/70 3.6 and Vivitar Komine 35/70 3.5 (the 3.5 not the latter 2.8/3.8 )
The IQ was ABSOLUTELY similar at ALL apertures/ all focals EXCEPT 35mm at full ap where Zuiko was better (for info : the zuiko 3.6 was the most - or nearly the the most- expensive 35/70 at that time)


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've had good success with Kobori-made Vivitar zooms with serial numbers starting with 77. By the way, is there a reason why so many Japanese lens makers have names with K in them?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
Gosh I hope you're right! I took a total flyer yesterday on an old Vivitar 75-205mm zoom which is not even a Series 1!

Well, the zooms of the time were not nearly as good as the primes... so you may have luck, or not Smile


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ramiller500 wrote:
I've had good success with Kobori-made Vivitar zooms with serial numbers starting with 77.

I haven't. I tried two Kobori-made lenses, both tele zooms (70-210 and 80-200 as far as I can remember) with f/4.5 and f/4 fixed apertures. Neither lens could be described with good words, both being reasonable at the short end but very, very soft at the long end of the zoom range. I sold both for peanuts ($10-15 I believe).


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
ramiller500 wrote:
I've had good success with Kobori-made Vivitar zooms with serial numbers starting with 77.

I haven't. I tried two Kobori-made lenses, both tele zooms (70-210 and 80-200 as far as I can remember) with f/4.5 and f/4 fixed apertures. Neither lens could be described with good words, both being reasonable at the short end but very, very soft at the long end of the zoom range. I sold both for peanuts ($10-15 I believe).


That was my experience too, most old zooms are not good at all.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My Kobori Vivitar 28mm-85mm, F3.5-f4.5...I would rate as just good, useful until you can afford something better....erm well I don't use mine so that means..................................................... Wink


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I honestly think it's better not to accumulate a collection of not very good low value lenses and instead make more targeted purchases and only accumulate what you actually need.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I honestly think it's better not to accumulate a collection of not very good low value lenses and instead make more targeted purchases and only accumulate what you actually need.


Well we wouldn't know of hidden gems unless we tried them Wink My favourite Kiron zoom cost me £4 and no forum years ago mentioned "you must get this zoom" so I found it by accident Cool


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, but how many dogs do you have to accumulate to find those gems? I'm also of the opinion that there aren't many gems to be had in third party lenses, especially zooms.

What's the sense in buying 10 cheap lenses in the hope one of them is good? What makes more sense - spend 100ukp accumulating a few cheap crappy lenses or spend the 100ukp on one very good lens?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Yes, but how many dogs do you have to accumulate to find those gems? I'm also of the opinion that there aren't many gems to be had in third party lenses, especially zooms.

What's the sense in buying 10 cheap lenses in the hope one of them is good? What makes more sense - spend 100ukp accumulating a few cheap crappy lenses or spend the 100ukp on one very good lens?


Of course you are right, but it's fun trying out lenses bought for peanuts...better than wasting money smoking Wink


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The two non Series 1 Vivitar zooms that I've got are both Kobori ( 77 serial numbers ) The 80-200 / 3.5 - 5.3, 1:4 macro, looks very impressive with its 72 mm lfilter ring, but looks don't count. It's an average lens at best.
The other one, an 28-200 f4 fixed aperture, 1:3.4 macro, which is compact - 55 mm filter ring, is not bad at all. I did a rough shootout with a Kiron made Vivitar Series 1 70-210 3.5 and in some instances the Kobori was better. It's a lens I wouldn't get rid of until I was sure of its performance one way or the other, I 'think' it is a decent lens, for a zoom of it's age and type. But if it is, then it would probably be very good in area - a sweet spot - and fall off in others. I need to test it.
But having said that, I have used these lenses a lot as a walkabout lens on a K10 and had some very good results, but probably not the hit rate I get by carrying a pocketful of a decent primes.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Yes, but how many dogs do you have to accumulate to find those gems? I'm also of the opinion that there aren't many gems to be had in third party lenses, especially zooms.

What's the sense in buying 10 cheap lenses in the hope one of them is good? What makes more sense - spend 100ukp accumulating a few cheap crappy lenses or spend the 100ukp on one very good lens?


Of course you are right, but it's fun trying out lenses bought for peanuts...better than wasting money smoking Wink


Yes, and if you can find them at car boot sales, charity shops for pennies like you and David (Lloydy) do, then it's fine to try them, but I wasted a lot of time and money on cheap lenses from ebay and really regret it, it was a big task to sell them again and reclaim the money I spent, in a few cases I couldn't so I wasted my very limited funds. I just would like to steer others away from making the same mistake if they are in a similar position to me and have limited funds.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
The two non Series 1 Vivitar zooms that I've got are both Kobori ( 77 serial numbers ) The 80-200 / 3.5 - 5.3, 1:4 macro, looks very impressive with its 72 mm lfilter ring, but looks don't count. It's an average lens at best.
The other one, an 28-200 f4 fixed aperture, 1:3.4 macro, which is compact - 55 mm filter ring, is not bad at all. I did a rough shootout with a Kiron made Vivitar Series 1 70-210 3.5 and in some instances the Kobori was better. It's a lens I wouldn't get rid of until I was sure of its performance one way or the other, I 'think' it is a decent lens, for a zoom of it's age and type. But if it is, then it would probably be very good in area - a sweet spot - and fall off in others. I need to test it.
But having said that, I have used these lenses a lot as a walkabout lens on a K10 and had some very good results, but probably not the hit rate I get by carrying a pocketful of a decent primes.


With most of these old zooms, if fact, probably all of them, there is a sweet spot in the focal range where they perform best, often they are better at 180mm than 200mm, for instance. Distortion tends to be at it's worst at either end of the focal range and the sweet spot somewhere in the middle.


PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Excalibur wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Yes, but how many dogs do you have to accumulate to find those gems? I'm also of the opinion that there aren't many gems to be had in third party lenses, especially zooms.

What's the sense in buying 10 cheap lenses in the hope one of them is good? What makes more sense - spend 100ukp accumulating a few cheap crappy lenses or spend the 100ukp on one very good lens?


Of course you are right, but it's fun trying out lenses bought for peanuts...better than wasting money smoking Wink


Yes, and if you can find them at car boot sales, charity shops for pennies like you and David (Lloydy) do, then it's fine to try them, but I wasted a lot of time and money on cheap lenses from ebay and really regret it, it was a big task to sell them again and reclaim the money I spent, in a few cases I couldn't so I wasted my very limited funds. I just would like to steer others away from making the same mistake if they are in a similar position to me and have limited funds.


Well the good days on ebay have gone, but it does help to live in or near a city for boot sales etc, but you could check out your nearest recycle group as some bargains can be found for many things. But unfortunately I reckon ebay sellers are watching these as well for stock.
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2