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I did it, switched the 5D for a K-x
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Love it!!!


Yep, it's very difficult to separate expectation from appreciation in these matters.

I think it's like my lust for a very very fast GT car... The Bugatti from Volkswagen group springs to mind... I love the idea, but then when real world considerations slip in, like parking, speed bumps, reversing, and turning circle to name a few, plus the fact that nowhere on Earth can one safely access the thing's top speed, short of a very wide very long very straight track, then it seems that the theoretical best is not the practical best.

What really matters I suspect are how quickly the act of picture taking follows the intent to take a picture (shutter delay) and how quickly the camera can adapt to changing circumstances. Given these criteria are met, then providing the lens is decent, and the sensor or film are reasonable, then the biggest variable will, as always, be the photographer's eye?

Doug



kuuan wrote:
nemesis101 wrote:
....
This goes I think, to show how although we like to think that it is the aesthetics alone which determine our likes, subconscious lens / camera snobbery also plays a part, where we 'see' what we expect to see. The most extreme was one photo taken with a Powershot A80 which was dismissed when truly labeled, but was the 'winner' when I pretended it was taken by a borrowed IDS Mk 3.. Hmmm..

Doug


there is much truth in that..
I remember recently reading a thread of someone who marveled about the improved quality of pics taken with his newest 'lens' upgrade, only to discover later that he got his files mixed up and it was those taken with the kit lens he had been looking at..


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
nemesis101 wrote:

I think it's like my lust for a very very fast GT car... The Bugatti from Volkswagen group springs to mind... I love the idea, but then when real world considerations slip in, like parking, speed bumps, reversing, and turning circle to name a few, plus the fact that nowhere on Earth can one safely access the thing's top speed, short of a very wide very long very straight track, then it seems that the theoretical best is not the practical best.
Short comment on that: come to Germany Very Happy


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I completely agree that lens or camera snobbery plays a part in our equipment likes or dislikes. And that most of the equipment we use is amply sufficient to produce excellent and meaningful pictures.

To get back on this thread's original topic, I am very satisfied with the K-x and not only for the reasons stated above (handling, size, wb, cost, etc.): what I did not anticipate is the beautiful colours it often produces. The 5D might have some glitz in the right conditions, but the K-x absolutely trumps it for colour rendition. I'm starting to understand why many rave about "Pentax colours".


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuan wrote:
I remember recently reading a thread of someone who marveled about the improved quality of pics taken with his newest 'lens' upgrade, only to discover later that he got his files mixed up and it was those taken with the kit lens he had been looking at..

about internet pics:
one quizz, 1 shot is the whole pic of a 85mm, the other is a crop of a 25mm, almost a 100% crop
can you tell which is which Shocked and don't at look the filename Wink
one lens had a Hoya pro1 UV, the color are different, which one is with the UV
how much different are the colors between the 2 pics on your lcd


you think that pixel peeper are stupid snob completely blind
now that I have a 24" 1920x1280 wide gamut, my older pics don't have the same IQ as last year
how will they look in 5 years when lcd resolution will be double than today
do you know how funny are my first pics archived at 640x480 Confused


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
now that I have a 24" 1920x1280 wide gamut, my older pics don't have the same IQ as last year


But they still are the same pictures as before, which is what we've been saying for the past couple of pages. Very Happy


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Poilu I'd say the first one is the crop, and the second had the filter ( though I am very inexperienced with filters..)


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
First one is crop, it has more visible noise.... It has slightly warmer colors too, but hard to tell, if this is caused by filter or coating.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lens/camera snobbery has nothing to do with this discussion.

It is simply rational talking about differences between different camera formats. No brands implied, just format. We must assume - and the experimental data confirm this - that the format is decisive, not the brand. We see that cameras of the same format made by different makers perform basically in the same way, with only minor differences. And we see that a full frame whatever-brand camera always performs better than a crop format whatever-brand camera.

Or at least it should be a rational discussion, because I see that from one side, instead of rational arguments, there are replies only with subjective statements about things like "feels better in the hands" or "I prefer the colours of brand X".
Which are all absolutely legit opinions and preferences. But they are subjective. They can not be used as valid reasons for everybody. One can prefer the colours of brand X, another can prefer the colours of brand Y, so if everyone has his own truth, what is the consequence? = no truth exists.

The only things that one must agree necessarily are the scientific data.
Everything else is subjective.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio I agree with the scientific data, and I think everybody else here does too

however this thread from the very beginning IMO obviously has been first of all about personal preference, much less about scientific reasoning.
how else could ludoo have reported about being happy having exchanged a FF Canon 5D for a APS-C Pentax K-x?

APS-C 'kills' dof play for you, but I have been enjoying dof play on my APS-C camera to the fullest. For me, purely subjectively, even more shallow dof and even less so other advantages which I hardly can see are no reason to change for a decisively bigger camera as it would be too disadvantageous for my travel / street shooting, me carrying my camera almost daily for the biggest part of the day.

Ludoo had similar reasons why he changed cameras. Great that he is happy with the change, and even better that he prefers, certainly subjectively, handling and colors of his new camera too Wink

Last edited by kuuan on Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kuuan exactly, this thread was started about my personal dislike of the 5d.
But what I find funny is that people here have no qualms about using mf lenses on full frame, but they would die before using a 35mm lens on aps-c. Smile


PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think the first picture is the full 85mm. I have no idea about the filter.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
I think the first picture is the full 85mm

no first is the 25mm
but you are the only one who didn't look at the filename
here is the whole frame


PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
So being wrong is the proof of being honest? Very Happy I must admit I expected to see much more difference in depth - the perceived space between near and distant objects. I didn't.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:

no first is the 25mm
but you are the only one who didn't look at the filename


haha Poilu, you crack me up, to say it in friendly words.
Actually I find it unacceptable that you accuse Brunner and me publicly of having being dishonest and to be cheats simply because we were right and you don't want to accept it. If I was a moderator I would ask you to apologize to fully restore Brunner's and my integrity in the public eye.
Fact is if I had not looked at the filename, that it would have been below me to do so, and I am sure that the same is true for Brunner.
Just as Brunner had pointed out I also found it quite easy to tell and was quite confident to be right.

Last edited by kuuan on Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:08 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
size, for my personal use, matters a lot!
so out of curiosity I took some pics of my K-x next to the Canon FF cameras:

next to EOS 1D


and between two 5D mark II:


some - 'personal preference remarks':
I have not particularly disliked the handling of Canons as compared to Nikons, but I definitely prefer the handling of Pentax, which is one of the biggest reason why I got one in the first place. This time in this shop I handled quite a few cameras and found the handling of some Nikons more to my liking than that of the Canons I tried. Btw. even small things like ISO button I find much better located on my entry level Pentax cam than on e.g. the FF Canons.
I must admit however that I was not able to see the menu structure of the Canons for the simple reason that I could not read it. Language was set to Japanese, and unlike on Nikons and Pentaxes, which say 'languages' in English in the menu even if set to Japanese, on the Canons I tried I did not find any menu point saying 'languages'. To find in the menu where to set to English I would have needed to consult an instruction manual. Maybe a minor flaw, but is this really so with all the Canons?


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
poilu wrote:

no first is the 25mm
but you are the only one who didn't look at the filename


haha Poilu, you crack me up, to say it in friendly words.
Actually I find it unacceptable that you accuse Brunner and me publicly of having being dishonest and to be cheats simply because we were right and you don't want to accept it. If I was a moderator I would ask you to apologize to fully restore Brunner's and my integrity in the public eye.
Fact is if I had not looked at the filename, that it would have been below me to do so, and I am sure that the same is true for Brunner.
Just as Brunner had pointed out I also found it quite easy to tell and was quite confident to be right.

Let's keep it civil please guys.

I couldn't see which was taken with which lens. One has slightly more saturation but not much else going on to my eyes.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:

I must admit however that I was not able to see the menu structure of the Canons for the simple reason that I could not read it. Language was set to Japanese, and unlike on Nikons and Pentaxes, which say 'languages' in English in the menu even if set to Japanese, on the Canons I tried I did not find any menu point saying 'languages'. To find in the menu where to set to English I would have needed to consult an instruction manual. Maybe a minor flaw, but is this really so with all the Canons?


Oh, come on. There is a menu voice called "Language", super visible - this for sure in the 5D and 5DII, but I think also in all other EOS cameras. And you would not need to consult a manual, just go through the menu voices until you find it.

Why do I have the impression that more and more simple excuses are brought instead of solid arguments?

I have nothing to say about personal preferences. Everyone is free to prefer what they prefer. And no one is obliged to justify a personal preference. It is entirely personal and entirely valid. But really the kind of arguments that are being offered lately are on the borderline of laughable.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
On my 400D the Language choice is the top function on the Tools2 tab in the menu. The word "Language" in English changes to whatever language is set - e.g. it becomes Sprache if set to German or Langue in French. So I would imagine it would be in Japaenese too if I could choose that. On my camera, though, I can only choose European languages. Confused


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
martinsmith99 wrote:
kuuan wrote:
poilu wrote:

no first is the 25mm
but you are the only one who didn't look at the filename


haha Poilu, you crack me up, to say it in friendly words.
Actually I find it unacceptable that you accuse Brunner and me publicly of having being dishonest and to be cheats simply because we were right and you don't want to accept it. If I was a moderator I would ask you to apologize to fully restore Brunner's and my integrity in the public eye.
Fact is if I had not looked at the filename, that it would have been below me to do so, and I am sure that the same is true for Brunner.
Just as Brunner had pointed out I also found it quite easy to tell and was quite confident to be right.

Let's keep it civil please guys.

I couldn't see which was taken with which lens. One has slightly more saturation but not much else going on to my eyes.


it is not civil to accuse me of being a cheat, and it is not un-civil to defend myself stating that I find such an unfounded accusations unacceptable.

the only reason why I thought the first photo must be the heavily cropped one is because I thought to make out less resolution, almost pixalation in the sky


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
kuuan wrote:

I must admit however that I was not able to see the menu structure of the Canons for the simple reason that I could not read it. Language was set to Japanese, and unlike on Nikons and Pentaxes, which say 'languages' in English in the menu even if set to Japanese, on the Canons I tried I did not find any menu point saying 'languages'. To find in the menu where to set to English I would have needed to consult an instruction manual. Maybe a minor flaw, but is this really so with all the Canons?


Oh, come on. There is a menu voice called "Language", super visible - this for sure in the 5D and 5DII, but I think also in all other EOS cameras. And you would not need to consult a manual, just go through the menu voices until you find it.

Why do I have the impression that more and more simple excuses are brought instead of solid arguments?

I have nothing to say about personal preferences. Everyone is free to prefer what they prefer. And no one is obliged to justify a personal preference. It is entirely personal and entirely valid. But really the kind of arguments that are being offered lately are on the borderline of laughable.


sorry Orio and sorry Canon, I must have overlooked it, that I didn't find the language menu point must have been entirely my mistake then.

peterqd wrote:
On my 400D the Language choice is the top function on the Tools2 tab in the menu. The word "Language" in English changes to whatever language is set - e.g. it becomes Sprache if set to German or Langue in French. So I would imagine it would be in Japaenese too if I could choose that. On my camera, though, I can only choose European languages. Confused


or do they possibly offer cameras in Japan that are Japanese only? I would not think so, and believe that it must have been my inability to find the menu point.
Some years ago I had bought a Panasonic video camera ( GS400 ) in Japan which has Japanese menu only. For that Panasonic had a reason, that very camera had sold for about the double price in Europe


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
it is not civil to accuse me of being a cheat, and it is not un-civil to defend myself stating that I find such an unfounded accusations unacceptable.

And I agree, but this is getting a little heated wich is why I asked that we all keep it civil and calm down a bit.


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gentlemen, please!

There is an interesting discussion going on. There is no sense in accusations like somebody cheating on filenames or something.

@poilu: Your examples are impressive, but I would have guessed correctly also without looking at the filenames. So, please, don't accuse other of being cheats, ok?

@kuuan: I understand your reaction, but perhaps poilu did not mean it the way it was written.

Such a discussion about very personal preferences can never be solved. We can, however, try to enjoy it. Wink


ylyad wrote:
nemesis101 wrote:

I think it's like my lust for a very very fast GT car... The Bugatti from Volkswagen group springs to mind... I love the idea, but then when real world considerations slip in, like parking, speed bumps, reversing, and turning circle to name a few, plus the fact that nowhere on Earth can one safely access the thing's top speed, short of a very wide very long very straight track, then it seems that the theoretical best is not the practical best.
Short comment on that: come to Germany Very Happy


Ha, ha, ha. Those times are over!
Yes, we have no speed limit on parts of our Autobahn, but traffic is so high that you can be happy to go at 140 km/h. When we drive northbound to my in-laws our average speed (without breaks) is at about 80-90 km/h and that's 90% Autobahn!


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
it is not civil to accuse me of being a cheat, and it is not un-civil to defend myself stating that I find such an unfounded accusations unacceptable

I cannot not find evidence that one pic is better than the other, seems you have younger eyes than mine
the point of those samples was to show that internet pics at 1024 pixels are not enough to judge a lens or sensor
I apologize to restore your integrity in the public eye but I am sad that you still believe that crop sensor can be compared to full frame


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Carsten wrote:
Yes, we have no speed limit on parts of our Autobahn, but traffic is so high that you can be happy to go at 140 km/h. When we drive northbound to my in-laws our average speed (without breaks) is at about 80-90 km/h and that's 90% Autobahn!

I use to drive Greece, Hungary, Austria, Germany, Italy always at 150km/h with max 180km/h, but only because my car cannot give more Crying or Very sad


PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:
Carsten wrote:
Yes, we have no speed limit on parts of our Autobahn, but traffic is so high that you can be happy to go at 140 km/h. When we drive northbound to my in-laws our average speed (without breaks) is at about 80-90 km/h and that's 90% Autobahn!

I use to drive Greece, Hungary, Austria, Germany, Italy always at 150km/h with max 180km/h, but only because my car cannot give more Crying or Very sad


Then you must be, sorry to say that, one of those lunatic drivers who endanger the lives of the others by driving much too fast in unsuitable traffic situations. Or, you only drive in summer on Sunday mornings at 05.00am.

Of course, there are parts (and times) when you can drive really fast on a German Autobahn, but these "gaps" are getting smaller and smaller.

I beg you to care about the persons in the other cars as well. Since I have kids I changed my mind completely about fast driving...

But now: Back to topic!
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