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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Leslie wrote:
There are some obvious differences between good adjustments/manipulations/retouching and rubbish. There are also many less obvious ones.


Provided that my result is "rubbish" (but who decides that?), I see no difference of "photographicity" in making a false nose to a model, from making it look like a painting.

Some days ago we were presented with a link to a photographer that altered the facial features of his models dramatically.

To the way I see things, personally, it is more honest to turn a photo into a painting (declaring clearly that you use the photo as art material), than to adjust the nose shape, ear shape, lip shape of a person in order to make it a different person that does not exist in reality. And what is worse, pretending that it is the real person. This is true deception.

But at the very least, if one thing has to be accepted, the other one also does. Otherwise, the person who denies that falls into a contradiction.


PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="hacksawbob"]
Quote:
Does anybody believe Ansel Adams would not now be using digital and turning out great landscapes in Photoshop?
Absolutely he would, but maybe MF camera with a digital back.

I have an interesting group which I take my photographs for "competition" I only really go for alternatie feedback on my images. Here is the link to some galleries of mambers Take a look at EB Swarbrick and Helen Spillanes images
http://www.slic-imaging.org.uk/page-5-galleries.htm

[quote]

Excellent link I had a quick look and had a surprise. I have met Sheila Goodyear and Maureen Glynn They are well know in the RPS, I am in the Swindon one.
As you may already know it is a RPS rule that no details about an image even the author are given until after judging As you write
‘The image stands on its own two feet’
Being a member of an RPS club is a must to help improve your photography and sort out your own standards.


PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't like any of the 4 names proposed here.
Actually I'll be sincere, at least three of them I really *dislike*.
What to say?
Perhaps I was born in the wrong century. If this is photography in the 21st century, I feel completely outside of it.


PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The images I thought were excellent
On the Swarbrick gallery I loved #1, 3, 6, 7, 10, 12, 13, 14,

I started to list them all and realised I like the majority.

Many of them are images I would not have taken because I’m not interested in the subject and too be honest haven’t that amount of talent.

I also realised I have seen Norman Piper a couple of times. He specialises in The battle re-enactment photos and his prints are just fantastic.
The only gallery I thought mediocre was Willcock


PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I did like a few of the shots in the Swarbrick gallery. There were also a few that I like scattered throughout the other galleries.

Some I really liked, some I really hated. I guess that is what is supposed to happen, emotion (good or bad). Some are nice photographs, some are nice photographs turned into art.

My feelings, thoughts (and I guess skills) has me leaning to the Photo Journalism side of the hobby (it is a hobby for me), but I am not opposed to the Photographic Art aspect of the hobby and enjoy looking at the work that the artist created. I realize all the effort and work that goes into creating this type of art and respect those that do it. However, I have a greater respect for someone who captures a true moment in time that takes my breath away (even if it is by luck). Now i am not saying it has to be exactly 'as shot', I suspect, and perhaps expect, that there be some post processing work. I include in this sharpening, levels, contrast, color correction and noise reduction. These types of 'refinements' are often necessary given todays equipment and media.

As I have stated before, all photos have their place. No one is going to like them all. We all have different likes, dislikes and styles. That is one of the things that makes this hobby great, give 10 photographers the same subject to shoot and you will get 10 different 'visions'.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You write you are ‘Leaning to the Photo Journalism side of the hobby’

This is (IMO) a very creative side of photography IMO more so than fashion, wedding or general commercial photographyand it takes all those subjects in its stride anyway. IMO it is the most creative and demanding side of professional photography.
I think a huge amount of effort and work goes into creating most Photo Journalism shots. Every job is a new challenge to your creativity. Pointing the camera and accepting a good exposure as a decent photo doesn’t impress editors unless you’re just snapping personalities on the street.
Everyday having to dream up new ideas to get different images from similar jobs and sometimes you get at least five or ten minutes to get those shots. or maybe half an hour to get four or five usable feature pictures from a non visual subject because the editor thinks the subject will make a good feature.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I worked for several years side-to-side with professional photographers.
I was cultural director for a foundation, and produced several books and exhibitions.
I have the highest respect for the professional photographers because the amount of knowledge that they must have to accomplish their work, is very big.
They have to photograph in very diverse conditions, please very different clients. And they are expected to work fast, and always to a perfect job.

Having that said, I think this is the death of photographers. Like playing bars is the death of musicians. And doing humour portraits in the streets is the death of painters.
It's called "standardization" and it can kill even the most creative individual on earth.

Unfortunately, those who make photography as a profession don't have a choice: if they want to eat, they need to please the client.

The advantage position of being an hobbyist photographer is, I don't need to please anyone but myself. So I can afford the luxury of setting the highest standards for what pleases me.
And the highest goals for what I am trying to achieve - knowing perfectly, of course, that I don't have the talent to do that.

The photographers I like, are people that most probably only knew the basics of taking a photograph. I am speaking of Atget, Brassai, Cartier-Bresson, Izis, Wim Wenders.
People who probably had/have only the necessary technical knowledge to operate their tools, and not more. Because they don't need more. THeir talent is in their vision. They only need as much technique as what they need to do what they like.

So I respect much the technical knowledge of the professionals, but I am only impressed by it when I see the technique applied to subjects that give me something emotionally. THe greatest technique applied to a standard subject only looks like nice skin - it can impress you at the moment, but it fast slips away. At least this is what it does to me.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Leslie wrote:
The images I thought were excellent
On the Swarbrick gallery I loved #1, 3, 6, 7, 10, 12, 13, 14,


For my personal taste Swarbrick gallery is well over the others.
His pictures have an almost constant high quality and this makes a good photographer imho.
There are also other nice pictures in the other galleries but also many that make me agree with Orio about the dangers of too heavy and cheap postprocessing.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I should clarify I chose the wording 'Photo Journalism' as I couldn't think of another way to express my thoughts. I do not want to work as a Photo Journalist, I meant someone who records what is going on around them. I would like to see a photo or two of mine published at some point, but I do not want to make a career out of it. I think that might take away some of the enjoyment that I get from standing behind my cameras.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At the SLIC competitions I never seem to score very highly I suspect because I have very straight images with very little manipulation I have relied on the camera and the lens to capture the moment, I suspect to score higher I will need to spend more time at the 'shop than behind the lens.

ultimately we are showing static impressions of electro magnetic radiation. how the glass\sensor\onboard processor\RAW converter etc interprets this radiation all have an interpretive effect. Why we enjoy one lens over another is due to its radiation modifying capabilities, Maybe a Zeiss lens allows one area of wavlengths to pass A Leica a different set of wavelengths etc. The biggest lie in photography is that "The camera never lies." There is no "truth" in photography only interpretations, who can say one interpretation is better or more truthful than another?

Does a Vermeer contain more truth than a Picasso?

There is certainly a challenge to represent a scene as close to how the photographers mind saw it, and to pass this representation on to another mind is quite a skill. But like a painting conveying emotion through these representations is an even greater skill, something which a straight image alone cannot always achieve. Am I to disregard the potential for an image to convey emotion by restricting the tools available? For my beleif (and everyone has there own, and is entitled to it!) I want to experiment with the full set of tools available to acheive the widest available range of images. maybe one day I will find my direction and concentrate on that.


PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I would like to comment about the high standard of friendly chat we have had on this subject. I am very impressed by the level of activity this post has generated.
Personally I think it better to have some sort of discussion about the work a member submits rather than just the bland ‘Well done’, ‘I like it’ etc. It’s always good to be polite but if or when we only post to photos we like I think a certain degree of dishonesty enters into things. I don’t mean this in a critical way, it is more my way of suggesting how the already high standard of the forum could become even better? I would like to see everybody’s submissions receive such a number of views and honest interesting discussion.
I hope I am not out of order writting this?

It’s raining again here but I’m off out and I shall take the K100 and a couple of lenses, one flash unit + the handy G5 just in case! I’m sure if I went out without a bag on my shoulder I would walk oddly.


PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
+ the handy G5 just in case! My, you do not travel Light! Laughing I am after as much feedback as possible. Good or bad I Would like as much feedback as possible. Maybe we can add to your signature a comment to the effect to receive bad feed back as well as good!


PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I must say that for the past few weeks, whenever I go outside (even to the mailbox), my camera bag is always over my shoulder.


PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cheers Bob. I must say your own comments have been very good I have actually copied your words about “showing static impressions of electro magnetic radiation. how the glass\sensor\onboard processor\RAW converter etc interprets this radiation all have an interpretive effect.” etc
I wish I would have written that! I think you wrapped it all up there.
How very true
As for criticism, if we don’t accept it how can we learn anything and I wish to always learn as much as I can. I might get it right then!
I have never seen the point off having top quality glass and a good camera to take snapshots with and certainly no point in posting such pictures to a forum for everyone to have a laugh at?
In a few hours I shall be posting a couple of shots done this afternoon and welcome all criticism or comment.
This afternoon I only took – the Pentax K10, Tamron SP 35-210, Zenitar 16mm, Peleng 8mm, Pentax SMC-M f1.8 50mm, flash unit, reflector and a my usual little bits and pieces. One shoulder bag. Lots more in the car boot!


PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Leslie wrote:

I have never seen the point off having top quality glass and a good camera to take snapshots with and certainly no point in posting such pictures to a forum for everyone to have a laugh at?


I am tired of your provocations.
T-I-R-E-D.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
Rob Leslie wrote:

I have never seen the point off having top quality glass and a good camera to take snapshots with and certainly no point in posting such pictures to a forum for everyone to have a laugh at?


I am tired of your provocations.
T-I-R-E-D.


Orio - I don't see any personal attack in this - Am I missing something, or are you reading more into this than is stated?


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Richard_D wrote:
Orio wrote:
Rob Leslie wrote:

I have never seen the point off having top quality glass and a good camera to take snapshots with and certainly no point in posting such pictures to a forum for everyone to have a laugh at?


I am tired of your provocations.
T-I-R-E-D.


Orio - I don't see any personal attack in this - Am I missing something, or are you reading more into this than is stated?


Sure, it is surely a coincidence that I am the only person in weeks to have posted here a snapshot taken with top quality glass and a good camera and posted to the forum for everybody to have a laugh at.

It is not the first time that Mr.Leslie does this, he sends these provocations mixed into other subjects so that if the target would protest, he can come up with the usual "oh, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote this". Same astute flamer strategy used a couple of days ago.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Orio wrote:
Sure, it is surely a coincidence that I am the only person in weeks to have posted here a snapshot taken with top quality glass and a good camera and posted to the forum for everybody to have a laugh at.

That's funny I was thinking that Rob was referring to me
I also feel some racist atmosphere against good lens.
It is true that on web size even a doorstop can show nice.
When I post a snapshot I know that many will have a laugh and say 'look this stupid who give 300 euros while I get the same result with my 20 euros bargain'


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You should worry! ALL my pictures are snapshots, good glass or not.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
poilu wrote:

That's funny I was thinking that Rob was referring to me


I don't remember any humouristic image of yours posted lately. In the remark there was a clear reference to a humouristic image.

Quote:
I also feel some racist atmosphere against good lens.


You think so? I have not noticed that. At least not here.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I’m pleased others thought it may be addressed to them.
However I was of course referring to myself it should be clear as I was writing in the first person. If I was referring to anybody else I would have wrote ‘Those who use’
I (Not ‘Those who’) sometimes spend more time trying to decide what lenses to take out and use than (Not ‘They’) I do taking my Snaps.
Perhaps a new topic about the money WE ALL sometimes waste in pursuit of better pictures. But there I go again! How can it be a waste of money if we enjoy it?
Others may choose to spend more money following a football team around the World (No insult meant to football supporters!!!)

Orio
This really is getting silly and is becoming a nasty personal attack on me. I have tried to ignore it but this time I can not.
You wrote Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:58 pm
“I don't see any problems forecoming as long as we will ignore each other, something that from now on I will certainly do.” Your own words.

I am happy to ignore each other if that is what you want so why keep having a go at me?
Please do ignore my posts and then others will not believe any of my remarks can be addressed to you.
If I wanted to refer to you I would do so by name as I am doing now.
I will not enter into personal attacks on somebody just because they may or may not have different opinions, work methods etc.
Somebody has advised me to just stay Cool about it all. I will.
I will not be driven from the group by your outrages.
You are spoiling good discussions and upsetting and confusing everybody
If you lay off maybe we can get back to normality and people can have discussions in a rational manner.
I apologise to the other members who read this, but I have to defend myself at sometime.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Leslie wrote:

This really is getting silly and is becoming a nasty personal attack on me. I have tried to ignore it but this time I can not.
You wrote Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:58 pm
“I don't see any problems forecoming as long as we will ignore each other, something that from now on I will certainly do.” Your own words.

I am happy to ignore each other if that is what you want so why keep having a go at me?
Please do ignore my posts and then others will not believe any of my remarks can be addressed to you.
If I wanted to refer to you I would do so by name as I am doing now.
I will not enter into personal attacks on somebody just because they may or may not have different opinions, work methods etc.
Somebody has advised me to just stay Cool about it all. I will.
I will not be driven from the group by your outrages.
You are spoiling good discussions and upsetting and confusing everybody
If you lay off maybe we can get back to normality and people can have discussions in a rational manner.
I apologise to the other members who read this, but I have to defend myself at sometime.


You try to make me as the bad guy of the situation but this group did not have problems when you were away from it, so your accusation is unfounded.
The problem is that I don't believe you when you say you were not hinting at me. You did it this way too many times for it to be believalble as casual.
It is easy to verify this, just getting back in this very thread, even after my positive comment, which I made with the intent of making the situation easier between us (a mistake I will never reply), you immediately made another one of your provocations, hinting very obviously at my opinions expressed in the other thread about the postwork.

So don't blame on me the polemics that you wanted to start.

I was really intentioned to ignore you as I wrote, but after having read that yet another flame bait of yours, I had, to quote you, to "defend myself".

As for the group you now pretend to be the defender of... where were you when we were 5 or 6 here doing our best to keep the group alive and well? You left the group, and only came back now that we have a high frequency of visitors and high number of comments. When there was the hard work to do, to keep the group up, you disappeared. I have been here EVERYDAY even when there were only three posters active.

So much for the group that you pretend to be the defender of, and that you accuse me of spoiling now.

Ha.
That must be the joke of the year.

Now I am really off that. You can reply whatever you want.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sad to see this thread... I would say clearly Orio never made wrong decision, Rob please think again what you made wrong and try to avoid next time for this conflicts. If you think you was straight and honest, think again perhaps this is not the best way. I also would sometimes really straight and honest ,but I wouldn't want to heart people so I not say what I think about reallity. (Not photographic matter)


PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I say, it is really my intention to ignore Mr. Leslie and try to live both in this group, if possible. Of course if he keeps saying "ok" on one side and sending dissimulated provocations on the other, I am human, not a saint, and might reply again.
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