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Extreme macro lenses?
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PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
parabellumfoto wrote:

My 50mm Nikkor gets a very narrow depth of field with the extender. Makes it very hard for macro. I didn't get a chance to post a sample pic today. I will try to show the image tomorrow.


The method of achieving a certain macro magnification has little to do with DoF; macro just inherently has a very narrow depth of field… So don't expect this to change if you get a different lens or extender.


PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Arkku wrote:
parabellumfoto wrote:

My 50mm Nikkor gets a very narrow depth of field with the extender. Makes it very hard for macro. I didn't get a chance to post a sample pic today. I will try to show the image tomorrow.


The method of achieving a certain macro magnification has little to do with DoF; macro just inherently has a very narrow depth of field… So don't expect this to change if you get a different lens or extender.

+1
DOF depends on magnification and aperture,
Same magnification, same aperture --> same DOF, not matter which lens you take!


PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ForenSeil wrote:
Arkku wrote:
parabellumfoto wrote:

My 50mm Nikkor gets a very narrow depth of field with the extender. Makes it very hard for macro. I didn't get a chance to post a sample pic today. I will try to show the image tomorrow.


The method of achieving a certain macro magnification has little to do with DoF; macro just inherently has a very narrow depth of field… So don't expect this to change if you get a different lens or extender.

+1
DOF depends on magnification and aperture,
Same magnification, same aperture --> same DOF, not matter which lens you take!


I have a Minolta MC Rokkor that I use with an adapter on my Nikon. That seems to be much easier to use and it's the lens I usually rely on for macro. DOF is greater and I suspect magnification is not as great as my 50mm Nikon with the extension tube.

Shooting with the Nikkor and extension tube is challenging.


PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


Here's the sample. As I said it's very hard to get the subject in focus. This time the head is slightly out but the main body is in focus. This is at 100% as I have cropped the image.


PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
WolverineX wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:

The Nikon M2 is just a 27.5mm extension tube with no optics. Along with your 50mm lens it probably won't even get you to 1:1.

nikon m2 is matching tube for nikkor 55mm macro to achieve 1:1


Yes it is, but the 55mm Micro has enough native extension to get to 1:2. The slightly shorter focal length will help, but I don't believe the 50mm has enough extension to achieve 1:1 with the M2 added, though I may be wrong...


PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:46 am    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
wuxiekeji wrote:
What are good manual focus extreme macro (5:1 - 1:1) lenses? I know Canon makes an MP-E 60mm but it's plastic. I'm wondering what similar lenses exist in the world of M42/old Nikon/anything adaptable to Canon EF mount, that are made of at least metal housing (so I won't break it on hiking trips) and have nice buttery focus ring with minimal backlash.

I have a 1:1 C-Y Zeiss 100/2.8 which is damn good as-is at but it doesn't do very well past 2:1 with extension tubes.

What did people use for extreme macro in the pre-digital days?


So, did you get the answers you were looking for??


PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
WolverineX wrote:
Ray Parkhurst wrote:

The Nikon M2 is just a 27.5mm extension tube with no optics. Along with your 50mm lens it probably won't even get you to 1:1.

nikon m2 is matching tube for nikkor 55mm macro to achieve 1:1


Yes it is, but the 55mm Micro has enough native extension to get to 1:2. The slightly shorter focal length will help, but I don't believe the 50mm has enough extension to achieve 1:1 with the M2 added, though I may be wrong...


there are vivitar focusing macro converters for 50mm lenses that give you 1:1 with regular 50mm lenses


PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:


So, did you get the answers you were looking for??


I think I got a few ideas, thanks! I have heard about but not really tried reversing lenses myself. I should get or fudge together a reversing adapter, and I guess another adapter to the other end to get threads to fit my macro flash, and test it out with the few 20-50 lenses I have and see what I can get. Might have to experiment with this for a while.

Although I'm a little bit puzzled if this is indeed how macro photography was done in the past. I'm a bit surprised that I can't find much about 5X-10X macro lenses in the old days when there were still plenty of superb macro shots all over nature magazines of little bugs and whatnot. Could it be true that even National Geographic and similar magazines were reversing lenses to get their extreme macro work done?


PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
buerokratiehasser wrote:
How do you want to use 3:1 in the field - there is no D-OF, you need to thwack the subject to keep still forever, etc. etc. Its more economical to catch the bug and shoot it later.

Most macro lenses go to 1:1 for a reason. In fact, 1:1 is only bearable by the no-cost of digital, shoot 20 and throw 18 away.


Well, with a flash it's actually not so difficult to stop down to F16 and shoot 1:1 - 3:1 in the field ... haha Very Happy


PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
buerokratiehasser is right.
With a 3X magnification you have to stack the images in order to have a usable picture.
The DOF is probably around a 1/10th of a mm. Even less.

Last edited by Himself on Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:54 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I got very nice results at about 3:1 with CZJ Flektogon 35mm 2.4 on bellows. But...it's only for stills, because I needed to be really close to the object.


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could check the Minolta out here http://www.dyxum.com/lenses/detail.asp?IDLens=199 reviews and sample photos


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
wuxiekeji wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that I can't find much about 5X-10X macro lenses in the old days when there were still plenty of superb macro shots all over nature magazines of little bugs and whatnot. Could it be true that even National Geographic and similar magazines were reversing lenses to get their extreme macro work done?


Google "63mm Luminar", "50mm Luminar", "50mm Leitz Photar", "50mm Tominon", "35mm Tominon" among others...


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
wuxiekeji wrote:
that are made of at least metal housing (so I won't break it on hiking trips) and have nice buttery focus ring with minimal backlash.

None of my plastic lenses have ever broken on hiking trips, even when I fell on top of my bag!


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
Quote:
Although I'm a little bit puzzled if this is indeed how macro photography was done in the past. I'm a bit surprised that I can't find much about 5X-10X macro lenses in the old days when there were still plenty of superb macro shots all over nature magazines of little bugs and whatnot. Could it be true that even National Geographic and similar magazines were reversing lenses to get their extreme macro work done?


You are looking in the wrong places.

For what's in effect the RMS list of decent lenses for photomacrography, buy a copy of Brian Bracegirdle's book Scientific Photomacrography. It was published before the 65 mm Canon was introduced, so doesn't mention it.

Alternatively, visit Klaus Schmitt's site www.macrolenses.de . Klaus doesn't report on lenses' performance in his database, which contains accounts of many obscure lenses, some good, others not.

Alternatively, visit http://savazzi.freehostia.com/photography/default.htm . Fewer lenses than on Klaus' site, but with evaluations.

Alex H, if Luminars, Macro Nikkors, and Photars are first rate lenses then the Tominons you mentioned are distinctly second rate. Cost effective yes, usable, yes, but not the best.


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:
Alex H, if Luminars, Macro Nikkors, and Photars are first rate lenses then the Tominons you mentioned are distinctly second rate. Cost effective yes, usable, yes, but not the best.


I know that, Dan, but that was not the point. Question was - which lenses. I listed the ones that are rather common, that is it.

I found Tominon 35mm to perform well on 16 Mp APS-C sensor. On the other hand, many first generation Luminars are not that good comparing to the newest ones, according to Enrico's tests.

Sorry, I am drifting a bit off-topic.


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
Sirrith wrote:
None of my plastic lenses have ever broken on hiking trips, even when I fell on top of my bag!


I guess you have different experiences than me ... I once used a Canon 50/1.4 which actually fell apart in 3 pieces after taking it once on a trip. And before it fell apart it was always autofocusing wrongly, and the manual focus on plastic lenses often has backlash and poor mechanical construction. After that I got a Contax Zeiss 50/1.4 and have been happy ever since Very Happy

I guess I'm more rough on my equipment than most people but I expect cameras and camera housing to withstand a beating. I cover my lenses properly so the optics is perfectly fine. But the last thing that should ever fail in a piece of photographic equipment is the housing (!) seriously, of all things that can fail ... give me some solid metal that I can not worry about for decades ... Smile

Now the only plastic lenses I have are Samyangs, and I use those only in the city or on non-hiking trips to countryside ...


PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Extreme macro lenses? Reply with quote
wuxiekeji wrote:
Sirrith wrote:
None of my plastic lenses have ever broken on hiking trips, even when I fell on top of my bag!


I guess you have different experiences than me ... I once used a Canon 50/1.4 which actually fell apart in 3 pieces after taking it once on a trip. And before it fell apart it was always autofocusing wrongly, and the manual focus on plastic lenses often has backlash and poor mechanical construction. After that I got a Contax Zeiss 50/1.4 and have been happy ever since Very Happy

I guess I'm more rough on my equipment than most people but I expect cameras and camera housing to withstand a beating. I cover my lenses properly so the optics is perfectly fine. But the last thing that should ever fail in a piece of photographic equipment is the housing (!) seriously, of all things that can fail ... give me some solid metal that I can not worry about for decades ... Smile

Now the only plastic lenses I have are Samyangs, and I use those only in the city or on non-hiking trips to countryside ...


My Canon FDn 50/1.4 has a very good mechanical construction and it is very good for macro photography too with extension tube but it has very thin DOF...

Samples here...





and one slightly overexposed, but I like it...



PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:

wuxiekeji wrote:
I'm a bit surprised that I can't find much about 5X-10X macro lenses in the old days when there were still plenty of superb macro shots all over nature magazines of little bugs and whatnot. Could it be true that even National Geographic and similar magazines were reversing lenses to get their extreme macro work done?

Alex H wrote
Google "63mm Luminar", "50mm Luminar", "50mm Leitz Photar", "50mm Tominon", "35mm Tominon" among others...


I had the same question for many years ago. After trying many macro lenses with > 5x magnification (using tubes or belows), I keep equipment which useable to take a picture outside of my room.

Here is my set up:
Luminars, Photar, Schneider componon-S with Multi focus system (360 rotation is possible to increase DOF).




Best regards


PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You want to talk extreme? I have a Wollensak 1/2" f/2.5 D-mount lens that I glued, reverse-mounted, to a 49mm lens cap. I mount this cap to a Tamron 90mm f/2.5 macro lens and it gives me extreme, full-frame magnifications -- like 7x. Well, full-frame at least with a 1.6x crop Canon EOS DSLR. I haven't checked to see if this setup will give me full-frame with a 35mm SLR. Buy anyway, this is just about the highest magnification you're gonna get unless you use a bellows with a special macro photographic lens, such as the Canon 20mm f/3.5 Macrophoto lens.

Some photo examples:

A close-up of the lens mounted to the lens cap:



This is the subject. A printer box. Note the lens on top of the box. That is the Wollensak 1/2" f/2.5 lens. It is tiny.



Note the wavy Windows icon graphic on the above box. Here's a close-up of that area:



Now, let's focus in on the text, which states "Windows(R) XP"

And here's a 100% enlargement of the shot taken with the Wollensak of the above text.



I've had that old D-mount Wollensak lens kicking around in my camera parts bin for years. I don't even recall what I paid for it, if anything.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm doing it in another approach nowadays.
Small sensor camera with a macro lens.

Using a Pentax Q with a Pentax F100mm or Vivitar 55mm macro gives a flexibility that the setup focuses from infinity to 1:1, unlike reverse lens or extension tube setups that limit focus range.
The crop of 5.5x also gives a pseudo 'magnification'.

Here are some samples :







These picts are not cropped for any magnification (only for composition).


PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
pinholecam wrote:
I'm doing it in another approach nowadays.
Small sensor camera with a macro lens.

Using a Pentax Q with a Pentax F100mm or Vivitar 55mm macro gives a flexibility that the setup focuses from infinity to 1:1, unlike reverse lens or extension tube setups that limit focus range.
The crop of 5.5x also gives a pseudo 'magnification'.

Incredible pictures!


PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Miles Teg wrote:
pinholecam wrote:
I'm doing it in another approach nowadays.
Small sensor camera with a macro lens.

Using a Pentax Q with a Pentax F100mm or Vivitar 55mm macro gives a flexibility that the setup focuses from infinity to 1:1, unlike reverse lens or extension tube setups that limit focus range.
The crop of 5.5x also gives a pseudo 'magnification'.

Incredible pictures!


Nice photographs indeed and the macro set up works well. Most of my macro is done with my Nikkor 50mm f2 AI and with nothing else. That lens is so sharp it picks up most details and I simply crop a 24mp image down to 1/4 size or whatever suits. Little specks in the full image blow up to still show remarkable detail. The later versions of the 50mm F2 had the MFD reduced to 45mm from 60mm, so on my DX frame camera it works out to be a very versatile lens.

Pentax Q seems to work in a similar fashion but better. This camera is similar to Nikon 1 system. The sensors are very small and that's the only thing that would concern me. The samples suggest there's nothing to worry about.

Last edited by parabellumfoto on Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:01 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Incredible result. But it means also that lenses you mentioned are quite sharp if they resolve so much details on such dense sensor. Well done.


PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
just starting to do macro that is nearing extreme. my setup is Olympus E-M5 , Olympus OM 90mm/2 macro + vivitar macro focusing teleconverter + sfr-11 olympus ring flash


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