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kuuan
Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 4569 Location: right now: Austria
Expire: 2014-12-26
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: diffraction limits: hopefully the MP race is over |
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kuuan wrote:
There is hope that the MP race is over, the key word is: 'diffraction limit'
see: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/brick-wall.shtml
Not sure if that had been posted before, but I find it interesting. Hopefully in future the emphasis for new sensors will be on less noise at higher ISO and better DR instead of on more PM. _________________ my photos on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kuuan/collections |
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 Posts: 4045 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
I want a 6MP full frame CMOS sensor made by today's standards! Such a sensor would blow your socks off with regards to high ISO noise _________________ Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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kuuan
Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 4569 Location: right now: Austria
Expire: 2014-12-26
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: |
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kuuan wrote:
just my thoughts Spotmatic!
according to the reasoning of the linked article more MP as reached now won't make any sense, so there is hope that future advancement of sensor technology may focus on IQ.
I have been very disappointed that every new dSLR offered more MP but often not better IQ, higher DR or less noise at high ISO. If somebody at least would have offered a choice, the same camera with 2 different sensors. That even could have been smart marketing as it might have made more prospective buyers aware that more MP isn't everything and many users might have jumped on that camera.
As it is I still don't find enough reasons to upgrade from my *istDs. For me it would not necessarily have to be FF, your K-7 with 8 MP ( I'd prefer over 6 ) but less noise and higher dynamic range and I'd not hesitate. _________________ my photos on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kuuan/collections |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
Of course, one can always downsize the pictures from today's sensors and the amount of noise will be similarly reduced. I'd expect, e.g. the Sony 24.6 mpix sensor in A900/D3x to have rather excellent noise performance downsized to 6 mpix. |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
Arkku wrote: |
Of course, one can always downsize the pictures from today's sensors and the amount of noise will be similarly reduced. I'd expect, e.g. the Sony 24.6 mpix sensor in A900/D3x to have rather excellent noise performance downsized to 6 mpix. |
I am not sure about this. This is nothing but an interpolation in the opposite direction.
It is true, of course, if the camera offers a combination of pixels in order to reduce noise, but only very few can do that. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
I am not sure about this. This is nothing but an interpolation in the opposite direction.
It is true, of course, if the camera offers a combination of pixels in order to reduce noise, but only very few can do that. |
I'm not sure I see what you mean; the basis for the conversation was the idea that some people would prefer sensors with a lower pixel count in order to trade resolution for lower noise, so we're speaking of noise per pixel. Since any reasonable downsampling algorithm (in camera or not) combines multiple pixels into one (instead of just picking one pixel per area), noise per pixel is obviously reduced along with the pixel count. (This is easily observable when viewing prints or web-size images next to 100% crops.)
One advantage of downsizing from a higher pixel count is that the resulting low-resolution image is much better than that of a camera with a CFA sensor having the same (lower) pixel count natively; demosaiciking artefacts are also hidden in the process. (Sigma cameras with the non-CFA sensors, i.e. Foveon, obviously don't have the problem with demosaiciking in the first place, but they can still benefit from digital filtering.)
In any case, the “less megapixels = less noise” thing is just based on pixel peeping the image at 100% instead of at equal size. The real way to less noise (total, not just per pixel) would be to increase the size of the sensor… Let's see when, if ever, digital medium format becomes affordable. =) |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10989 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Spotmatic wrote: |
I want a 6MP full frame CMOS sensor made by today's standards! Such a sensor would blow your socks off with regards to high ISO noise |
+1,000,000,000!
I want a full-wafer sensor with same pixel density of XT/350D, or even 300D. Considering 5DII FF sensor pixel density is 2x of the XT/350D, and given other improvements in manufacturing processes, full-wafer sensors at 1/2 pixel density should be possible with reject rates low enough to be relatively economical. Wafer sizes (according to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wafer_(electronics) ) are 1", 2", 3", 4", 5", and 150mm, 200mm, 300mm, and by year 2012, 450mm. Imagine a (conservative) 3" sensor! What a camera that would make! And a 450mm sensor?! 450mm is nearly 18"; a full-wafer 18" sensor?! WOW, WOW, WOW! Ultra-Large format digital! _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I want money to afford 4x5 large format or 6x9 at least and really don't care digital at all. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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kuuan
Joined: 14 Jan 2008 Posts: 4569 Location: right now: Austria
Expire: 2014-12-26
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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kuuan wrote:
Attila wrote: |
I want money to afford 4x5 large format or 6x9 at least and really don't care digital at all. |
I hear you Attila.. I have a long way to go, and what a great journey it will be _________________ my photos on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/kuuan/collections |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
kuuan wrote: |
Attila wrote: |
I want money to afford 4x5 large format or 6x9 at least and really don't care digital at all. |
I hear you Attila.. I have a long way to go, and what a great journey it will be |
Yes it is if anybody hold a 6x9 slide in own hands after all I don't think so want any digital anymore. I can just imagine same with 5x4 _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 10989 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Ha Ha! My imagination goes too crazy sometimes. I have 14-inch process lens that covers 16x20-inch (wide angle). I like to hold Provia slide of that! Also make nice contact prints of landscapes. Actually I have necessary woodworking skills (small racing sailboats) and may someday build the camera! _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
siriusdogstar wrote: |
Ha Ha! My imagination goes too crazy sometimes. I have 14-inch process lens that covers 16x20-inch (wide angle). I like to hold Provia slide of that! Also make nice contact prints of landscapes. Actually I have necessary woodworking skills (small racing sailboats) and may someday build the camera! |
_________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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ChrisLilley
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1767 Location: Nice, France
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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ChrisLilley wrote:
Attila wrote: |
Yes it is if anybody hold a 6x9 slide in own hands after all I don't think so want any digital anymore. I can just imagine same with 5x4 |
That just moves the digitization step from image capture to post processing. And post processing now includes some destructive, non reversible chemical steps. _________________ Camera (ˈkæ mə rə), n. Device for taking pictures in bright light
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don’t. Key: Ai-P, Ai, Ai'ed, AiS
Camera: Nikon D90, D40, DK-21M eyepiece, ML-3 remote MF lenses: Nikkor 20mm f/4 K, AI'ed | N.K. Nikkor-N 24mm f/2.8 | Nikkor-N.C 24mm f/2.8 | Nikkor 28mm f/2.8 AiS late model | Арсенал (Arsenal) Мир-24Н (Mir-24N) 35mm f/2 | Cosina Voigtländer Ultron SL II 40mm f/2.0 | Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/2.8 AiS | Zoom-Nikkor 80-200 f/4.5 Ai | ЛЗОС (LZOS) Юпитер-9 (Jupiter-9) 85mm f/2 | Cosina Voigtländer APO-Lanthar 90mm f/3.5 SL | Nikkor-P 105mm f/2.5 pre-Ai, Ai'ed | Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/4 | Schneider Kreuznach Componon 105mm f/5.6 | Nikkor 135mm f/2.8, Ai'ed 1976 model | Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 ED AiS | Арсенал (Arsenal) ТЕЛЕАР-Н (Telear-n) 200mm f/3.5 | Nikkor 300 mm f/4.5 Ai (full equipment list) |
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tkbslc
Joined: 02 Jul 2009 Posts: 194 Location: Utah, USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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tkbslc wrote:
Arkku wrote: |
Of course, one can always downsize the pictures from today's sensors and the amount of noise will be similarly reduced. I'd expect, e.g. the Sony 24.6 mpix sensor in A900/D3x to have rather excellent noise performance downsized to 6 mpix. |
That is not exactly true. The problem is the native pixel density has not decreased. At capture time, the noise is recorded along with the image. When reducing the size, you will be keeping relatively the same amount of noise as the resize software does not know noise from detail. Resizing will make the noise smaller along with the detail, though, so less noticeable at 100% pixel peeping view. Using a lower resolution sensor will - in theory - capture less noise natively.
Look at what Canon has done with the 1dsmk3 and 5Dmk2. 21MP and less noise than the 5D. Now imaging what they could do with a low-res sensor that starts with less noise to begin with. I think 6MP is pushing it though, I would probably vote for 10MP. _________________ Canon 30D + some AF and MF lenses |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
ChrisLilley wrote: |
Attila wrote: |
Yes it is if anybody hold a 6x9 slide in own hands after all I don't think so want any digital anymore. I can just imagine same with 5x4 |
That just moves the digitization step from image capture to post processing. And post processing now includes some destructive, non reversible chemical steps. |
And keep alive obsolete technology.+ few years later I can get even more higher resolution scan due I believe scanning technology will be also improved. I love digital cameras too, but I would like to have film for long time too. They need to live together not against to each other. I like to shoot on film mostly landscapes, because I believe they are better everything else just fine on digital and most of the cases better too. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Mist
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 Posts: 134 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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Mist wrote:
I hope a Full Frame war is next.
Sony made a step in right direction with A850, but I am waiting FF camera from Pentax. |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
tkbslc wrote: |
The problem is the native pixel density has not decreased. At capture time, the noise is recorded along with the image. When reducing the size, you will be keeping relatively the same amount of noise as the resize software does not know noise from detail. Resizing will make the noise smaller along with the detail, though, so less noticeable at 100% pixel peeping view. Using a lower resolution sensor will - in theory - capture less noise natively. |
The whole point is that 100% pixel peeping view is not they way to compare noise, and where many online comparisons (e.g. dpreview's side-by-side noise samples) go wrong. For the comparison to be fair, one would either need to enlarge the low-resolution image (thus enlarging the noise along with the image, including CFA demosaicking artefacts, etc), or to downsample the high-resolution image (thus making the noise smaller as well, along with other faults). Of course high resolution is not a guarantee of a better image, e.g. if the sensor resolution was not the limit or if the sensor itself is inherently more noisy, but neither is low resolution any guarantee of less noise and lower resolution imposes more of a limit for large output sizes (100% crop being the ultimate, and indeed absurdly large, size).
So, for a given output size the higher resolution image is not necessarily at any disadvantage despite higher initial noise per pixel, because the noise averages* out and just like other pixel-level defects (because indeed, as you said, the resizing algorithm can't, in the general case, tell noise apart from the other data).
* As a hypothetical example, consider an image of a grey card that should ideally be completely mid-grey, but has random noise. Now, downsize that to exactly one pixel by taking the average of all pixels in the image—the more pixels you have, the closer to perfect mid-grey you will almost certainly get in that one-pixel image. (The resizing doesn't even need to be with a computer: one could just print the image and observe less apparent noise the farther away one goes to view this print.) |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
Attila wrote: |
And keep alive obsolete technology.+ few years later I can get even more higher resolution scan due I believe scanning technology will be also improved. |
Aren't current scanners good enough to hit the limit of the film's resolution (or at least that of the lens or diffraction)? Or are you referring to scanners at a given price point? =) |
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ChrisLilley
Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 1767 Location: Nice, France
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Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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ChrisLilley wrote:
Arkku wrote: |
Attila wrote: |
And keep alive obsolete technology.+ few years later I can get even more higher resolution scan due I believe scanning technology will be also improved. |
Aren't current scanners good enough to hit the limit of the film's resolution (or at least that of the lens or diffraction)? Or are you referring to scanners at a given price point? =) |
I looked into film scanners recently, as I often see Nikon film SLRs going for inexpensive prices and it would be nice to shoot a bit of (full frame) film and to use a body that actually meters with my lenses (!).
Film purchase and developing costs are a drawback, of course. But the biggest drawback is the scanner. A good Nikon scanner is more expensive than a good full frame Nikon DSLR like the D700. A mid range, but still high quality, scanner plus associated software is still over 1000 euro. Its too much.
A good midrange to high-end consumer film scanner will provide 3500 to 4000 dpi actual resolution; 3500 dpi /25.4 * 36 is 4960 pixels on the long side of the frame. My 12 Mpx D90 gives 4288 pixels on the longs side of the (DX) frame. An oil immersion wet drum scanner may give higher resolution, but that's well outside an amateur budget. _________________ Camera (ˈkæ mə rə), n. Device for taking pictures in bright light
There are 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don’t. Key: Ai-P, Ai, Ai'ed, AiS
Camera: Nikon D90, D40, DK-21M eyepiece, ML-3 remote MF lenses: Nikkor 20mm f/4 K, AI'ed | N.K. Nikkor-N 24mm f/2.8 | Nikkor-N.C 24mm f/2.8 | Nikkor 28mm f/2.8 AiS late model | Арсенал (Arsenal) Мир-24Н (Mir-24N) 35mm f/2 | Cosina Voigtländer Ultron SL II 40mm f/2.0 | Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/2.8 AiS | Zoom-Nikkor 80-200 f/4.5 Ai | ЛЗОС (LZOS) Юпитер-9 (Jupiter-9) 85mm f/2 | Cosina Voigtländer APO-Lanthar 90mm f/3.5 SL | Nikkor-P 105mm f/2.5 pre-Ai, Ai'ed | Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/4 | Schneider Kreuznach Componon 105mm f/5.6 | Nikkor 135mm f/2.8, Ai'ed 1976 model | Nikkor 180mm f/2.8 ED AiS | Арсенал (Arsenal) ТЕЛЕАР-Н (Telear-n) 200mm f/3.5 | Nikkor 300 mm f/4.5 Ai (full equipment list) |
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