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Complete list of Helios lenses - getting closer
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What is the Carl Zeiss? I looks a LOT like my Primoplan 1.9 (at least, the barrel)... first time I see it (well, I'm not in the Zeiss things)



PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Zeiss is a CZJ Biotar 58mm, that's where the Soviets got the optical formula for the Helios 44 from. Serial is 3425xxx so I guess that makes it a 1952 (3,200,000-3,470,000 : 1949-1952).

dimitrygo wrote:
This is the earliest version of screw mount Helios 44, may be all the lenses from this batch are even prototypes. They are from very early 50s. The preset mechanism is not very convenient - you need to push the lower ring down and simultaneously turn the upper ring to the desired aperture value, then release the lower ring.
This is the only Helios 44 version with aperture closing down to 22. It also has a longer barrel and its front element is recessed even deeper than all later version.

Thanks for the tips on the aperture, will try it some more once it's cleaned. I thought the early 50s prototypes were labeled BTK for "Biotar Krasnogorsk" and the one in my the picture is a very early production version from around 1960, but I'd love to learn more about it.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
MartinV wrote:

dimitrygo wrote:
This is the earliest version of screw mount Helios 44, may be all the lenses from this batch are even prototypes. They are from very early 50s. The preset mechanism is not very convenient - you need to push the lower ring down and simultaneously turn the upper ring to the desired aperture value, then release the lower ring.
This is the only Helios 44 version with aperture closing down to 22. It also has a longer barrel and its front element is recessed even deeper than all later version.

Thanks for the tips on the aperture, will try it some more once it's cleaned. I thought the early 50s prototypes were labeled BTK for "Biotar Krasnogorsk" and the one in my the picture is a very early production version from around 1960, but I'd love to learn more about it.

Yes, the very first was called BTK. But this one is the very first that was called Helios 44 Smile We will probably never know if they were prototypes or production variant. They are quite rare, yours is probably 4th or 5th copy I see.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The early Helios 44 is CLA-d now, the aperture seems to work just as dimitrygo described. Two more pictures:


Type 1.a on the left, 1.c on the right.


1.a by itself, dents and all.


PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice item, congratz!


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quoting from another topic, maybe this years/serials discussion is more appropriate here:

Misha_M wrote:
MartinV wrote:
Just curious - how did you determine that your Helios 44 is from 1958 or 1959? I have an early Helios 44 with a 0008xxx serial, but I'm not sure about its year of manufacture.


I think that this is what the listing said when I bought it, but I guess it can be wrong;
The serial on my lens is really early 0000891, it is M39 mount, has 13 blades, and the front says "Helios" in Russian - 44, 1:2, F = 5,8cm, has red "n", aperture goes to f/22, minimal focusing distance is 0.5 meters .

From what I know, the production of these under the name helios (as opposed to "biotar krasnogorskiy") started at 1958.
So the guess of 1959 seems to be quite on the mark, although it can also be from 1958...
From 1960 on the serial numbers start with 60.


Wow, and I thought my Helios 44 was an early one Smile But there are still differing opinions as to the years of manufacture. Earlier in this topic it was suggested that my lens might be from the early fifties, but I thought 1960 was more likely. The Zenit book (www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/pdf/zenitbuch.pdf) suggests that the early 50s BTK prototype was revived as Helios 44 in 1960, but that book is not all that in-depth about lenses.

I'm quite sure 00 and 0 serials were used well into the 1960-s, I have written down some numbers I've see at online auctions and such:

Helios 44 0071766 (lens "passport" dating it to December 1961)
Zenit 3M 62005115 with Helios 44 0113474 (early 1962?)
Zenit 3M 65060964 with Helios 44 0309694 (mid 1965?)

Not fool-proof, but seems to make sense.

But it would be nice to be a little more sure about the year of 0000xxx and 000xxxx lenses as well.


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
My Helios 44-2 is serial'd 0054216 so may pre-date your 1961 version.
I have read, and I cannot remember where, that the serials 0000XXX (and maybe 000XXXX), were reserved for special orders, where the utmost precision was required - , party officials and military maybe, or KGB perhaps - and were not necessarily related to year of manufacture at all.
Of course this could be just a load of horse pucky, but ...... ya never know ................
OH


PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
My Helios 44-2 is serial'd 0054216 so may pre-date your 1961 version.

The 44-2 is an M42 lens, right? I think the -2 was added to some lenses (Industar 50-2, Helios 44-2, Jupiter 6-2, Helios 40-2) when they went from M39 to M42, but that didn't happen until the late 60s. The leading '0' in your serial could indicate a 1970 lens in that case, apparently that numbering scheme was used around that time, as described on the first page of this thread.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dimitrygo wrote:
MartinV wrote:
I can't quite figure out the preset system as it is different from later Helios 44s and needs some CLA, but the lower aperture ring can be pushed down (a bit like on the Industar 61LZ or Jupiter 37A). M39, 13 blades, labeled "ГЕЛИОС 44 1:2 F=5,8см П №[serial] [KMZ logo]", serial is 0008xxx. I'm guessing it's from 1960? I hope to provide better pictures once I get the lens CLA-d.

This is the earliest version of screw mount Helios 44, may be all the lenses from this batch are even prototypes. They are from very early 50s. The preset mechanism is not very convenient - you need to push the lower ring down and simultaneously turn the upper ring to the desired aperture value, then release the lower ring.
This is the only Helios 44 version with aperture closing down to 22. It also has a longer barrel and its front element is recessed even deeper than all later version.


Hi members,

I haven't read all the messages. Someone might already have mentioned this lens. It is a Helios 44 from a very early Start SLR s/n 5800366. The lens s/n is 00039xx. It looks different from the rear than my other Start Helios 44 lenses. And I don't recall ever seen another one like it over the years. So perhaps it is a new lens to the list?

Cheers



PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
MartinV wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
My Helios 44-2 is serial'd 0054216 so may pre-date your 1961 version.

The 44-2 is an M42 lens, right? I think the -2 was added to some lenses (Industar 50-2, Helios 44-2, Jupiter 6-2, Helios 40-2) when they went from M39 to M42, but that didn't happen until the late 60s. The leading '0' in your serial could indicate a 1970 lens in that case, apparently that numbering scheme was used around that time, as described on the first page of this thread.


The 44-2 comes in M39 and M42 versions. The -2 is a series no. - eg 44-2, 44-3 etc. The higher the number the greater the lens resolution. M39 and M42 overlapped as different factories used up stocks.

00 normally indicates pre-1970, a single 0 suggests 1970. Cool


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
MartinV wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
My Helios 44-2 is serial'd 0054216 so may pre-date your 1961 version.

The 44-2 is an M42 lens, right? I think the -2 was added to some lenses (Industar 50-2, Helios 44-2, Jupiter 6-2, Helios 40-2) when they went from M39 to M42, but that didn't happen until the late 60s. The leading '0' in your serial could indicate a 1970 lens in that case, apparently that numbering scheme was used around that time, as described on the first page of this thread.


The 44-2 comes in M39 and M42 versions. The -2 is a series no. - eg 44-2, 44-3 etc. The higher the number the greater the lens resolution. M39 and M42 overlapped as different factories used up stocks.

00 normally indicates pre-1970, a single 0 suggests 1970. Cool


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Any idea when KMZ stopped the use of П inscription on their H-44 ?


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Any idea when KMZ stopped the use of П inscription on their H-44 ?


From what I know, the symbol was simply supposed to indicate that a lens was coated. It did not denote a special coating like in the case of the Zeiss T. Because of that it was redundant to include the symbol when pretty much all production lenses had some form of coating.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That is interesting stuffs! Should create a website with all these.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BurstMox wrote:
Any idea when KMZ stopped the use of П inscription on their H-44 ?

Early 60s, my best guess is that 1961 was the first year for KMZ with simpler markings - 1,5/85 instead of 1:1,5 F=8,5см , and no more П. I'm sure there can be exceptions and I have a 1963 Jupiter 8M by Arsenal with "1:2 F=5 см" markings (but no П).


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
TAo2 wrote:
The 44-2 comes in M39 and M42 versions. The -2 is a series no. - eg 44-2, 44-3 etc. The higher the number the greater the lens resolution. M39 and M42 overlapped as different factories used up stocks.

I still think the -2 on indicates an M42 lens for Helios 44-2, Helios 40-2, Industar 50-2, etc. I guess it's possible that some 44-2 "beauty rings" ended up on M39 lenses, but just how common are those M39 44-2's?

According to http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html the indices of 44M-5, 44M-6 and 44M-7 do indicate resolution, but this practice didn't start until the 80s/90s. From the specs on that page, for example, 44M-4 and 44M-5 have the same resolving power. And there's a 44-7 lens with less resolution than either of those, since the -7 indicated a Zenit 7 lens in that case. The naming and serial number schemes were pretty inconsistent, so it's hard to make generalizations.

BTW, that link and also the first page of this topic say that 44-2 was M42, not M39.

TAo2 wrote:
00 normally indicates pre-1970, a single 0 suggests 1970. Cool

If a 0100000 (single 0) lens is from 1970, then the previous lens from the production line would be 0099999 (double 0, but still 1970), right? Smile Maybe the owner of the 0054216 Helios 44-2, mr. Oldhand, can shed some light on this; what type of lens is it according to the types on page one of this topic? KMZ, type 1.a, or MMZ, type 2.a? If it's an M42 lens, it seems unlikely to be from early sixties, as Soviet M42 cameras didn't appear until the late sixties.


PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
themoleman342 wrote:
Quote:
Any idea when KMZ stopped the use of П inscription on their H-44 ?


From what I know, the symbol was simply supposed to indicate that a lens was coated. It did not denote a special coating like in the case of the Zeiss T. Because of that it was redundant to include the symbol when pretty much all production lenses had some form of coating.


Quote:
Early 60s, my best guess is that 1961 was the first year for KMZ with simpler markings - 1,5/85 instead of 1:1,5 F=8,5см , and no more П. I'm sure there can be exceptions and I have a 1963 Jupiter 8M by Arsenal with "1:2 F=5 см" markings (but no П).


That's true, I just noticed that not all plants stopped to use the П at the same time. I was wondering when KMZ stopped this marking. I'm asking this question because I have a 44 from KMZ, with this lettering (5.8cm П), but with serial starting with 55xxxxx. Even if KMZ copied the serial methode of MMZ, that would make this Helios made in 65, but in 65 was already many Helios with simple 58mm markings from KMZ.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
MartinV wrote:
TAo2 wrote:
The 44-2 comes in M39 and M42 versions. The -2 is a series no. - eg 44-2, 44-3 etc. The higher the number the greater the lens resolution. M39 and M42 overlapped as different factories used up stocks.

.

TAo2 wrote:
00 normally indicates pre-1970, a single 0 suggests 1970. Cool

If a 0100000 (single 0) lens is from 1970, then the previous lens from the production line would be 0099999 (double 0, but still 1970), right? Smile Maybe the owner of the 0054216 Helios 44-2, mr. Oldhand, can shed some light on this; what type of lens is it according to the types on page one of this topic? KMZ, type 1.a, or MMZ, type 2.a? If it's an M42 lens, it seems unlikely to be from early sixties, as Soviet M42 cameras didn't appear until the late sixties.


Here are some images that may help the discussion
It appears I missed the N prefix in the serial no.
So ...... an MMZ Zebra v1 (1969-70) looks likely.
Apologies for my oversight
OH







PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:

So ...... an MMZ Zebra v1 (1969-70) looks likely.

And yours is an M42 lens, right?

I have a similar Zebra M39 MMZ Helios 44 and the 80xxxxx confused me for quite a while, here it is on the right:



But BurstMox's red П Helios 44 with the 55 serial is still a mystery to me. I assume it's a silver M39? How many aperture blades?


PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
MartinV wrote:
Oldhand wrote:

So ...... an MMZ Zebra v1 (1969-70) looks likely.

And yours is an M42 lens, right?

I have a similar Zebra M39 MMZ Helios 44 and the 80xxxxx confused me for quite a while, here it is on the right:



But BurstMox's red П Helios 44 with the 55 serial is still a mystery to me. I assume it's a silver M39? How many aperture blades?


Yes - M42.
OH


PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I also have MMZ 44 with m39, on Zenit-E with m39 mount.

About my red П Helios 44 with the 55 serial, it's not 55, but 50xxxx (doesn't change anything) it is silver, and 13 blades. In fact, it looks exactly like a 00 or 000 serial Helios 44 (only 000 and some 00 have red P and focal in cm), but mine has serial 5001128.
Here is a photo :



Comparing to my 0xxxxx silver H-44, body is not exactly the same (some little differences in aperture ring) but it is NOT a strange preset, it's normal H-44 preset.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did anybody knows is it possible to reverse the front element of helios and if possible which version is the one?
I have tried on 44M KMZ but the lens touches the inner one when reversed and did not fit properly in place. I have tried to make a modification that makes the lens make weird bokeh.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
simbon4o wrote:
Did anybody knows is it possible to reverse the front element of helios and if possible which version is the one?
I have tried on 44M KMZ but the lens touches the inner one when reversed and did not fit properly in place. I have tried to make a modification that makes the lens make weird bokeh.


I think that this is impossible due to the fact that the front elements are simply too close for them no to touch. The front element simply bended too much.
You can try reversing the rear element - that is very easily done.


PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Did Helios make any bellows lenses? I see the reprographic model...what is the focal length, and does it have a helicoid or is it for bellows use? ...Ray


PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ray Parkhurst wrote:
Did Helios make any bellows lenses?


The Helios 44-3M functions as a normal lens or it separates and functions as a bellows lens.
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