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Chinon and Tomioka?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Chinon and Tomioka? Reply with quote
A quick question or two for anyone who might know.
Did Tomioka make any other lenses for Chinon besides the 55mm f1.4?
There are a plethora of claims by sellers that this lens or that lens is a Tomioka.
Is there an established list of what lenses and who they were made for as far as Tomioka is concerned?
Secondly, are all Tomioka lenses universally good, or are there lemons in their line-up?
Thanks in advance
OH


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, this topic is always a real can o' worms....

Chinon lenses are a mixed bag, the few I've had have ranged from poor to mediocre, nothing worth keeping.

Tomioka, well, I highly doubt all their lenses were good, I expect some were good and some weren't.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've had several f/1.4 lenses produced by Tomioka, as well as a f/1.2 Revuenon by Tomioka.
I'm pretty shure that Tomioka also made the f/1.4 for Chinon. My experience is that all those Tomioka lenses are good. Optical performance is comparable to for example a Takumar 50/1.4. Center sharpness even a bit better wide open than the Takumar. Coating a bit less than the SMC. Mechanical quality very good but not as good as the Takumars. Every claim that a lens other than the 55/1.4 or 55/1.2 is made by Tomioka, I would doubt.

Last edited by caspert79 on Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Chinon 1.4/55 I had was made by Tomioka.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think most Or all Tomioka lenses can be recognized by a flat lens element on the back. But personally, I wouldn't care whether it's made by Tomioka or not. I've used many f/1.4 mf lenses: the Tomioka lenses were not significantly better or worse than other brands.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
I think most Or all Tomioka lenses can be recognized by a flat lens element on the back. But personally, I wouldn't care whether it's made by Tomioka or not. I've used many f/1.4 mf lenses: the Tomioka lenses were not significantly better or worse than other brands.


I have also read of this flat back element on the 55 f1.4 lens.
This would most likely only apply to that lens would it not?
If Tomioka made lenses in other focal lengths they may not also have this feature methinks.
Anyway, I would be interested in knowing if Tomioka made any other focal length lenses for Chinon - or any other branded lens for that matter.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is this Chinon a Tomioka?





PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Chinon bought lenses from several makers so trying to guess who made what is pretty pointless really.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Chinon bought lenses from several makers so trying to guess who made what is pretty pointless really.


Yes - so apart from the current wisdom about the 55mm f1.4 and its flat rear element, there may not be any other distinguishing features on Chinon lenses made by Tomioka.
Are there any other identifiable signs for picking Tomioka lenses from other brands - Yashinon for example - apart from the 55mm f1.4 of course.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think Mamiya Sekor 55/1.4 also has something with Tomioka.
Otherwise my Yashinon 55/1.2 has name plate with 'Tomioka' in it.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oldhand wrote:
Are there any other identifiable signs for picking Tomioka lenses from other brands - Yashinon for example - apart from the 55mm f1.4 of course.

If I'm not mistaken, Tomioka was exclusive lenses supplier for Yashica since 1950. Finally in 1960 Yashica bought Tomioka. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I fear that all Yashica lenses were made by Tomioka from that date. However, some rumors say that the latest Yashica lenses supplied, especially those marked with a C, not manufactured Yashica-Tomioka.

DSB DS DS-M DX ML ...Tomioka all! Smile

In many other cases it is impossible to know the origin, even knowing and comparing optical designs, everything is bought and sold, ideas, engineers, patents, Nagano was buzzing ... is very difficult to know who manufactured for whom, where and when Smile

Happy shots!


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
anktonio wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
Are there any other identifiable signs for picking Tomioka lenses from other brands - Yashinon for example - apart from the 55mm f1.4 of course.

If I'm not mistaken, Tomioka was exclusive lenses supplier for Yashica since 1950. Finally in 1960 Yashica bought Tomioka. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I fear that all Yashica lenses were made by Tomioka from that date. However, some rumors say that the latest Yashica lenses supplied, especially those marked with a C, not manufactured Yashica-Tomioka.

DSB DS DS-M DX ML ...Tomioka all! Smile

In many other cases it is impossible to know the origin, even knowing and comparing optical designs, everything is bought and sold, ideas, engineers, patents, Nagano was buzzing ... is very difficult to know who manufactured for whom, where and when Smile

Happy shots!


Many thanks anktonio
OH


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Chinon bought lenses from several makers so trying to guess who made what is pretty pointless really.


So did Soligor; ability to discern & select the Tokinas from that bunch isn't pointless. Wink


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
anktonio wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
Are there any other identifiable signs for picking Tomioka lenses from other brands - Yashinon for example - apart from the 55mm f1.4 of course.

If I'm not mistaken, Tomioka was exclusive lenses supplier for Yashica since 1950. Finally in 1960 Yashica bought Tomioka. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I fear that all Yashica lenses were made by Tomioka from that date. However, some rumors say that the latest Yashica lenses supplied, especially those marked with a C, not manufactured Yashica-Tomioka.

DSB DS DS-M DX ML ...Tomioka all! Smile

In many other cases it is impossible to know the origin, even knowing and comparing optical designs, everything is bought and sold, ideas, engineers, patents, Nagano was buzzing ... is very difficult to know who manufactured for whom, where and when Smile

Happy shots!



H'mm I wasn't impressed with the 28mm and 55mm f2 DSB Yashica lenses...I was given another 55mm and that was better but still not the best lenses in my collection, for sharpness.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had the DSB 2/55, I thought it was poor too.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I had the DSB 2/55, I thought it was poor too.


If Yashica owned Tomioka with all the designers and skilled work force then I thought the ML Yashica 135mm was ordinary i.e. nothing outstanding.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
I had the DSB 2/55, I thought it was poor too.


If Yashica owned Tomioka with all the designers and skilled work force then I thought the ML Yashica 135mm was ordinary i.e. nothing outstanding.


I felt the same about the ML lenses I had, sharp enough but nothing stood out, I had 2.8/28, 2.8/35, 2/50 ad 1.7/50. The 2/50 was probably the best of that bunch, but still nothing special.

Tomioka also produced T* lenses for Zeiss at one point, so they could produce top quality. It's probably a case of what the client wants at what price point, if the client wants cheap, like Chinon, then they get lower quality, if the client wants average price like Yashica, they get average quality and if they want expensive like Zeiss, then they get top quality.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have 2 Chinon lenses, 135/2.8 and 200/3.5.

No idea if they're Tomioka but the 135 is fairly good and the 200 is good. Neither is amazing wide open, but I don't rate the SMC 50/1.4 much, so I've no doubt about the claim that the Chinon is sharper than the Tak as I'd expect them to be comparable.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excalibur wrote:
H'mm I wasn't impressed with the 28mm and 55mm f2 DSB Yashica lenses...I was given another 55mm and that was better but still not the best lenses in my collection, for sharpness.

I unknow the lenses that you have referred. I have only DS-M 50/1.7 and DX 50/1.4. Both are fine lenses. I was impressed with the performance of DS-M 50/1.7 and I decided to do a comparison with Planar 50/1.8.

http://manualens.com/foro/index.php/topic,14491.0.html

The comparison is in Spanish, but the images do not need text. After making the comparison, I kept impressed.

Regards.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
anktonio wrote:
Oldhand wrote:
Are there any other identifiable signs for picking Tomioka lenses from other brands - Yashinon for example - apart from the 55mm f1.4 of course.

If I'm not mistaken, Tomioka was exclusive lenses supplier for Yashica since 1950. Finally in 1960 Yashica bought Tomioka. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I fear that all Yashica lenses were made by Tomioka from that date. However, some rumors say that the latest Yashica lenses supplied, especially those marked with a C, not manufactured Yashica-Tomioka.

DSB DS DS-M DX ML ...Tomioka all! Smile

In many other cases it is impossible to know the origin, even knowing and comparing optical designs, everything is bought and sold, ideas, engineers, patents, Nagano was buzzing ... is very difficult to know who manufactured for whom, where and when Smile

Happy shots!


This is not entirely true. Tomioka made some of the lenses for Yashica, but Yashica also made their own lenses in their own plant. I had heard that Yashinons were Tomioka whereas Yashikors were Yashica, but this may not be true. There are a few Yashinons that I suspect were made by Yashica due to their optical formulas differing from known Tomioka designs. The 1.4/50 and 1.9/50 for instance don't seem to be Tomioka designs.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't think Yashica had their own lens plant. Tomioka were their lens supplier from late 1949 onwards and in 1968, Yashica bought Tomioka. In 1983 Kyocera bought Yashica and Tomioka become the Kyocera Optical Division, they still operate under than name and make lenses for Zeiss and others.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mos6502 wrote:
There are a few Yashinons that I suspect were made by Yashica due to their optical formulas differing from known Tomioka designs.

This may be due to Yashica acquired lenses factory Zunow and their patents in 60-61. But long before this date Tomioka provided the lenses to Yashica, including his first 6x6 and TLR (Tri-lausar design). Even these Zunov designs were manufactured and modified by Tomioka since the acquisition.

I have no evidence that Yashica had its own lens plant until she bought Tomioka. After digging on the internet, I am positively sure that all Yashica lenses from the early 60's (even before) until the end of the 90 (*), were made by Tomioka.

(*) I still do not know what does the C in some last Yashica lenses... compact, cosina... Smile

Happy shots!


PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Besides 1.4/55mm and 1.2/55mm CHINON this 2.8/100mm is also made by Tomioka: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=49746
Yashica distributed many Tokina models under its name so what anktonio says is oversimplified.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
anktonio wrote:
Mos6502 wrote:
There are a few Yashinons that I suspect were made by Yashica due to their optical formulas differing from known Tomioka designs.

This may be due to Yashica acquired lenses factory Zunow and their patents in 60-61. But long before this date Tomioka provided the lenses to Yashica, including his first 6x6 and TLR (Tri-lausar design). Even these Zunov designs were manufactured and modified by Tomioka since the acquisition.

I have no evidence that Yashica had its own lens plant until she bought Tomioka. After digging on the internet, I am positively sure that all Yashica lenses from the early 60's (even before) until the end of the 90 (*), were made by Tomioka.

(*) I still do not know what does the C in some last Yashica lenses... compact, cosina... Smile

Happy shots!


The Zunow connection might explain some of the early SLR lenses, but it doesn't explain the Yashikors. Perhaps these were bought in, Tokina perhaps? If Tomioka made all of the Yashica lenses, then it is probably ok to presume that not all of them were necessarily designed by Tomioka. I'm going to dig around on Japanese pages and see if I can find more out about this.


PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
As you ask about Chinon lenses and which were actually made by Tomioka, your question can easily be answered by enumerating those Chinon lenses that also carried the Tomioka imprint:
3.5 / 21mm Chinon Tomioka and Revuenon Tomioka
1.2 / 55mm Chinon Tomioka and Revuenon Tomioka
1.4 / 55mm Chinon Tomioka and Revuenon Tomioka
2.8 / 100mm Chinon Tomioka and Revuenon Tomioka
Some of the 2.8 / 135mm Chinon lenses may have been made by Tomioka, judging by their optical performance, but I have seen none personally labelled as a Tomioka. There is a Tomioka Tominon 135mm lens and you can see pictures of it, searching this site for Tomioka. Some Chinon 135mm lenses were clearly made by Tokina and others have the Tamron broad-band anti-reclective coating (BBAR).
Those are the lenses that I have seen and owned myself. On a second level, your question is more difficult to answer if you take the peculiar Japanese ways of industrial co-operation into account. From all we know, Chinon did not operate an optical plant, but was a designer and manufactuer of lens barrels and cameras, co-operating with Seiko for the precise shutters of their cameras. Their lenses were not cheap productions throughout (such a logics of production would be un-Japanese), but rather they were intended for a mass market around the world and therefore had to be available in great quantities right from the beginning. Therefore, the same optical formula for certain lenses was manufactured by different optical firms. Some of these firms seem to have specialized for certain lens types, like Tokina for tele lenses in their early years. Lenses manufactured by Tokina were sold as Nikon, Ricoh, Mamiya, Chinon, Soligor, Hanimex, possibly Canon, as well as Tokina. Their standard of quality is usually as high as that of an early Nikon lens.
Similarly, some lenses in high demand, like the truly legendary 1.4 / 55mm lens, were manufactured for Chinon by different producers on the original Tomioka design that seems to be a Zeiss variant.
It is still a miracle why some of these lenses carried the Tomioka imprint additionally, while others that are clearly recognizable as Tomioka products do not carry the Tomioka imprint. I can only guess here that those lenses were set apart as "Chinon Tomioka" only after the co-operation between Yashica and Zeiss on their Contax cameras became effective. Nevertheless, all Chinon 1.4 / 55mm lenses were manufactured (with imprint or without) by Tomioka, while others were manufactured by Cimko (formerly Topcor) and Cosina. They are not necessarily of less quality, but a Tomioka is a Tomioka is a Tomioka.
The Chinon Tomioka lenses clearly stand out because of their color-corrected (CC) light transmission that is superior to the Takumar performance in my personal subjective opinion. Apologies to all Pentax and Takumar lovers.

Last edited by Fujinonuser on Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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