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Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:04 am    Post subject: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
Hi,

my work on the Mamiya auto bellows and the comments of Dan_ made me think again in adapting a technical large format or medium format camera to a digital mirrorless camera.

One major point is the typical handgrip of the typical mirrorless cameras such as the Sony alphas. The camera producers currently follow a trend that this handgrip gets bigger and bigger.

I once baught a Linhof Technika 70; these cameras at least to my findings are completly unusable for adaptation if infinity shall be reached.

Dan_ mentioned the Linhof Technikardan. My question is how it is constructed and if the frame for the groundglass can be completely screwed away (without changing or even destroying the camera) in order to create and mount a much smaller frame in a size that the hand grip is not in the way.

Does anybody know this for the Linhof Technikardan, and/or any other technical camera in this style, available used in the market for prices considerably less then 1000Euro? Currently Sinar P / P2 is available quite cheep for some 500Euro including lens, so this may also be a possible candidate if it would be possible to screw away the the frame while everything needed for the settings stays in place.

Changing the frame on the camera side needed of course an adaptation of the bellows. This issue I'd say is solvable, either by using an existing bellows and a light construction e.g. made of 1mm airplane plywood, or a specialized bellows, which might be my choice since most likely a bag bellows would be needed anyway.

Best regards
Andreas


PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have been looking at similar setups and as usual every design has its compromises.

I have Minolta and Contax swing/shift bellows, from the same manufacturer as your Mamiya bellows. Those are relatively sturdy, small and lightweight but are very limited in their movements, having only swing and shift in their front standard. Plus you need a fair amount of extension before any movement is possible. I'm looking at using two front standards with some DIY bag belows to get a small sturdy setup with a bit more movements.

I also have a Hama tilt shift bellows, lightweight, compact and with a very wide range of movements but very fiddly, there are frustratingly many tiny knobs that have to be perfectly tight before the whole thing is stable. With the standard bellows you do need a fair bit of extension before movements are possible, I'm considering making a bag bellows for it.

Finally I have a 4x5 Inka CL45 Technikardan type camera, massive and heavy. Lots of movements, but not all geared and with minimal extension the standards interfere with each other when making larger movements.

For me (and perhaps you) the ideal would be fairly compact, decent amount of movements, preferably geared, useable with a minimal amount of extension. Something based on a 6x9 system may be ideal, Arca Swiss comes to mind, but those are very expensive. The Cambo Actus line may be a good compromise, but also at a considerable cost.


Anyway, I wouldn't recommend the Technikardan for your project. Like my CL45 it has large identical L shape front and rear standards that don't allow small movements with little extension without hitting each other. The Sinar P2 has a different system, no L shaped standards but massive ones with all the movements inside the standards themselves. The P2 version is geared, the F version isn't, not sure about the P version. According to people who made such conversions before the gearing of 4x5 cameras may be too coarse for smaller film sizes and especially digital cameras. The Cambo Ultima series may be one the best system, with very precise geared movements if you don't mind the weight and cost, their Actus line is less heavy and bulky, at the cost of limited rear standard movements.


PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
dickb wrote:
Anyway, I wouldn't recommend the Technikardan for your project. Like my CL45 it has large identical L shape front and rear standards that don't allow small movements with little extension without hitting each other.

That's right. It needs a recessed lens board to use a 47mm lens with no movements.


PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
I've long been planning to fit my digital cameras to my 5x4 Toyo view camera - but have yet to do anything beyond thinking about it. Rolling Eyes

Current thoughts are to make a open lens board frame with a fabric connector to the body held to the camera by a M42 thread. The camera itself will be supported by an aria/swiss style QR mount.
This should allow any of my interchangeable lens cameras to be used without issues with grips.

Designing the aria support so it can be easily & accurately (all positions must be on the same plane) moved for stitching larger images is my stumbling block. I may end up making a mk1 version that's simply fixed in one place, limiting stitching to the Toyo's movements...


PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
I've long been planning to fit my digital cameras to my 5x4 Toyo view camera - but have yet to do anything beyond thinking about it. Rolling Eyes

Current thoughts are to make a open lens board frame with a fabric connector to the body held to the camera by a M42 thread. The camera itself will be supported by an aria/swiss style QR mount.
This should allow any of my interchangeable lens cameras to be used without issues with grips.

Designing the aria support so it can be easily & accurately (all positions must be on the same plane) moved for stitching larger images is my stumbling block. I may end up making a mk1 version that's simply fixed in one place, limiting stitching to the Toyo's movements...


Arca Swiss, you mean, right? I have long been planning something along those lines as well.

So does your Toyo have L standards or another type? Does it allow small movements with limited extension? Do you want to mount the Arca QR to the rear standard or directly to the rail?

My ideal system may consist of a sliding back that allows quick switching between a ground glass to compose the whole image and a stitching camera mount that allows the digital camera to move along the image plane. This may well get impractically large and heavy though. Limiting the size of the stitching surface may be necessary to get a realistic result. All the commercially available 4x5 to 35mm stitching adapters I've seen are just a single row, I would like 3 rows at least..


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
dickb wrote:


Arca Swiss, you mean, right? I have long been planning something along those lines as well.

So does your Toyo have L standards or another type? Does it allow small movements with limited extension? Do you want to mount the Arca QR to the rear standard or directly to the rail?

My ideal system may consist of a sliding back that allows quick switching between a ground glass to compose the whole image and a stitching camera mount that allows the digital camera to move along the image plane. This may well get impractically large and heavy though. Limiting the size of the stitching surface may be necessary to get a realistic result. All the commercially available 4x5 to 35mm stitching adapters I've seen are just a single row, I would like 3 rows at least..


Oops yes Arca Swiss.
It has the large 158mm standards, which allow movements with my bag bellows. I was planning on mounting to the standard.
Switching between ground glass & digital would be relatively simple, no worse than switching a lens board, but getting the focus the same will probably be tricky.
Any system using a 5x4 monorail will be large & heavy, but I suppose over engineering a camera mount could still double the weight of the camera.
I think I've seen a commercial solution using an offset slider that could be flipped to give 2 rows, it was of course far more than I can justify for my project - especially as I'd need a lens board adapter to fit it.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rollei X-ACT has been used successfully by a few people, namely my friend Michael Erlewine for doing his excellent flower work.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kds315* wrote:
Rollei X-ACT has been used successfully by a few people, namely my friend Michael Erlewine for doing his excellent flower work.


Indeed, cameras made for around 6x9 cm may be the best compromise between bulk, weight, precision and rigidity. There are also Linhof cameras (M679) and Arca Swiss ones. Prices may be on the higher end though.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
It has the large 158mm standards, which allow movements with my bag bellows.


So you have tested it and it allows enough movement at minimal extension? My Inka CL45 standards interfere with each other since they are the exact same size. A smaller front standard may be a solution for that.

DConvert wrote:
I was planning on mounting to the standard.
Switching between ground glass & digital would be relatively simple, no worse than switching a lens board, but getting the focus the same will probably be tricky. Any system using a 5x4 monorail will be large & heavy, but I suppose over engineering a camera mount could still double the weight of the camera.


Indeed, if you switch out backs that would avoid a lot of weight and complexity, at the expense of ease of use and perhaps precision.

DConvert wrote:
I think I've seen a commercial solution using an offset slider that could be flipped to give 2 rows, it was of course far more than I can justify for my project - especially as I'd need a lens board adapter to fit it.


So how large a stitched surface are you looking for? Anyway, if you were to look for a new old 4x5 camera to buy I'd recommend a Sinar P2 or Cambo Ultimate type to get easier movements at minimal extension. or a 6x9 sized one to save on size and weight.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
If I mount the standards in opposite orientations I can make quite a wide range of movements without issue but I don't really expect to use the minimum extension anyway. The lenses I have that have good coverage tend to be longer focal lengths (a couple around 200mm cover 5x4 nicely and I think my 150mm componon might be the shortest that does completely) If playing with SLR lenses etc these would almost certainly need to be used for macro, even if mounted inside the bellows (an option that's available for lenses I can get a Cokin adapter on - but that does raise a few potential hazards). I guess a recessed lens board is another option - not something I have a yet.

I'm greedy so would want to have as big an area available as I can. Smile
There is a potential for the image from tilted lenses to be well off the axis so being able to image any of the area inside the standard would be ideal. I'm sure in the majority of shots the area imaged will be substantially lesseven if just to reduce processing time.

I'm sure there are better options for the LF camera, but I have 2 Toyo cameras and a few other spares.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
If I mount the standards in opposite orientations I can make quite a wide range of movements without issue but I don't really expect to use the minimum extension anyway. The lenses I have that have good coverage tend to be longer focal lengths (a couple around 200mm cover 5x4 nicely and I think my 150mm componon might be the shortest that does completely) If playing with SLR lenses etc these would almost certainly need to be used for macro, even if mounted inside the bellows (an option that's available for lenses I can get a Cokin adapter on - but that does raise a few potential hazards). I guess a recessed lens board is another option - not something I have a yet.


I have no recessed lens board either, but I clamped a selection of rings to a lens board ending on a 72mm filter thread. This allows me to mount a lens inside the bellows. Not very convenient, but it works - more or less.

DConvert wrote:
I'm greedy so would want to have as big an area available as I can. Smile
There is a potential for the image from tilted lenses to be well off the axis so being able to image any of the area inside the standard would be ideal. I'm sure in the majority of shots the area imaged will be substantially lesseven if just to reduce processing time.

I'm sure there are better options for the LF camera, but I have 2 Toyo cameras and a few other spares.


Sorry, I mixed up your and Andreas's posts. So you envision to shift the camera by shifting the rear standard itself for your mk1 version. That would require your camera to be mounted in the exact plane of your ground glass. Should be possible.

I was considering doing something similar but on a smaller footprint, limiting the stitching surface. Perhaps repurposing an XY shifter from a microscope as the stitching platform for the camera. But that is all just brainstorming for the moment.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
dickb wrote:

I have no recessed lens board either, but I clamped a selection of rings to a lens board ending on a 72mm filter thread. This allows me to mount a lens inside the bellows. Not very convenient, but it works - more or less.


Sounds like a broadly similar approach. I have a homemade lens board that has 3 screws to clamp cokin rings in place. I may end up making a series of adapters going from cokin size rings to standard lens mounts - but that was a thought more for using the body as a quick & dirty optical bench than for actual imaging.
In time cokin rings may even become my standard lens boards with the LF lenses mounted on similar discs (my DIY board being an adapter to these)- much more compact than the current ones for me.
dickb wrote:


Sorry, I mixed up your and Andreas's posts. So you envision to shift the camera by shifting the rear standard itself for your mk1 version. That would require your camera to be mounted in the exact plane of your ground glass. Should be possible.

I was considering doing something similar but on a smaller footprint, limiting the stitching surface. Perhaps repurposing an XY shifter from a microscope as the stitching platform for the camera. But that is all just brainstorming for the moment.


I'd certainly rather have the camera move across the image circle using more than just the standards movements, but that makes matching the ground glass considerably more important (and more difficult), I did pick up an old Graflock sliding adapter (to mount medium format film to a LF standard, It was fairly cheap & offered a possible intermediate solution as Graphlok adapters to SLRs are available. but the seals look too badly worn to splash out on one of those & I'm not sure it's actually making the problem easier. Studying how it's put together MIGHT help[ prompt design ideas eventually.


PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 8:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
I have a homemade lens board that has 3 screws to clamp cokin rings in place. I may end up making a series of adapters going from cokin size rings to standard lens mounts - but that was a thought more for using the body as a quick & dirty optical bench than for actual imaging.
In time cokin rings may even become my standard lens boards with the LF lenses mounted on similar discs (my DIY board being an adapter to these)- much more compact than the current ones for me.


I see Cokin has renamed their adapter series. Which size are yours, A(S), P(M), Z-Pro(L) or X-Pro(XL)?

DConvert wrote:
I'd certainly rather have the camera move across the image circle using more than just the standards movements, but that makes matching the ground glass considerably more important (and more difficult), I did pick up an old Graflock sliding adapter (to mount medium format film to a LF standard, It was fairly cheap & offered a possible intermediate solution as Graphlok adapters to SLRs are available. but the seals look too badly worn to splash out on one of those & I'm not sure it's actually making the problem easier. Studying how it's put together MIGHT help[ prompt design ideas eventually.


I can't quite visualise how you would manage match the ground glass and those Graflock to SLR adapters plus camera to the exact same plane of focus. Maybe the groundglass can be offset to the same depth of the SLR? Your sliding adapter wouldn't allow the full 4x5 inch to be stitched, right?

In a fit of optimism I once bought a Sinar(?) sliding back that couples a medium format (digital?) back to a 4x5 back. It is massive and heavy and not fit for my intended purpose as the surface used for the back is way too small and the overengineered sturdiness doesn't allow for easy modification.

I'm thinking maybe I construct a 4x5 back where one half is ground glass matched to the camera register and the other an XY slider onto which my camera is mounted. Then compose on the ground glass, shift over to the other side to take the stitched photos. I would lose a lot of stitching surface but realistically 7x10 cm or 6x9 would suit quite a few of my lenses well and the number of photos to stitch would be more or less reasonable..


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
dickb wrote:
DConvert wrote:
I have a homemade lens board that has 3 screws to clamp cokin rings in place. I may end up making a series of adapters going from cokin size rings to standard lens mounts - but that was a thought more for using the body as a quick & dirty optical bench than for actual imaging.
In time cokin rings may even become my standard lens boards with the LF lenses mounted on similar discs (my DIY board being an adapter to these)- much more compact than the current ones for me.


I see Cokin has renamed their adapter series. Which size are yours, A(S), P(M), Z-Pro(L) or X-Pro(XL)?

DConvert wrote:
I'd certainly rather have the camera move across the image circle using more than just the standards movements, but that makes matching the ground glass considerably more important (and more difficult), I did pick up an old Graflock sliding adapter (to mount medium format film to a LF standard, It was fairly cheap & offered a possible intermediate solution as Graphlok adapters to SLRs are available. but the seals look too badly worn to splash out on one of those & I'm not sure it's actually making the problem easier. Studying how it's put together MIGHT help[ prompt design ideas eventually.


I can't quite visualise how you would manage match the ground glass and those Graflock to SLR adapters plus camera to the exact same plane of focus. Maybe the groundglass can be offset to the same depth of the SLR? Your sliding adapter wouldn't allow the full 4x5 inch to be stitched, right?

In a fit of optimism I once bought a Sinar(?) sliding back that couples a medium format (digital?) back to a 4x5 back. It is massive and heavy and not fit for my intended purpose as the surface used for the back is way too small and the overengineered sturdiness doesn't allow for easy modification.

I'm thinking maybe I construct a 4x5 back where one half is ground glass matched to the camera register and the other an XY slider onto which my camera is mounted. Then compose on the ground glass, shift over to the other side to take the stitched photos. I would lose a lot of stitching surface but realistically 7x10 cm or 6x9 would suit quite a few of my lenses well and the number of photos to stitch would be more or less reasonable..


I have Cokin rings in both A & P sizes, I have no intention of going for the bigger ones or buying any new ones with their new names.

I feel adjusting the register is best done by altering the camera mount - that way the ground glass might still be used for film. With the arca swiss mount fine adjustment of the distance should be quite easy, perhaps with a fixed stop & spacer inserts for different cameras.
Your optimism sounds similar to mine I think it only allows a medium format image having ground glass Which slides over to make room for the MF film holder.


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Certainly not for bif. Just how fast do you expect to make that many digital exposures?

Some kids discovered they could appear twice in the Senior Class panoramic photograph by running from one side to the other faster than the camera could sweep the scene.

Flatbed film scanners can clamp in place of ground glass like great big sensor, easier to align. 8x10 no problem, given enough computer memory.

Smaller high rez c-mount camera on xy rig.

Stitch together a dozen or more 42-62mp images is going to require some RAM, after good alignments.

Are you planning billboards? View from space ads? lol


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Adapting LF or MF technical cameras to digital cameras Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
I feel adjusting the register is best done by altering the camera mount - that way the ground glass might still be used for film. With the arca swiss mount fine adjustment of the distance should be quite easy, perhaps with a fixed stop & spacer inserts for different cameras.


OK, I thought you were considering commercially available Graflok to 35mm adapters, those all have their plane of focus much further back than the original ground glass plane. For me moving the ground glass wouldn't be an objection as I don't plan to use it for film in this configuration. Also, your Arca plates are apparently in a different orientation than mine, I have L brackets with the dovetails in the same plane as the focus plane. Yours are at right angles to the focus plane so those would work for fine focus adjustment.


PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Certainly not for bif.


Birds in flight you mean? No indeed. There are other subjects to point a camera at though.

visualopsins wrote:
Just how fast do you expect to make that many digital exposures?

Some kids discovered they could appear twice in the Senior Class panoramic photograph by running from one side to the other faster than the camera could sweep the scene.


Quite, with a rotating lens. I have a Horizon 202 camera with the same idea on 35mm film and results with moving subjects can be unusual.

visualopsins wrote:
Flatbed film scanners can clamp in place of ground glass like great big sensor, easier to align. 8x10 no problem, given enough computer memory.


Scanners can work, but have their own pros and cons. For optimal image quality I would prefer the method with a camera as discussed above.

visualopsins wrote:
Smaller high rez c-mount camera on xy rig.


This is not a very useful suggestion. As we are discussing capturing a large projected image using a smaller sensor increases the potential problems.

visualopsins wrote:
Stitch together a dozen or more 42-62mp images is going to require some RAM, after good alignments.

Are you planning billboards? View from space ads? lol


Glad to hear you made yourself laugh. Your assumption that I want to make ultra high megapixel images is incorrect. I want to capture the image projected by some of my weird and wonderful fast lenses with larger image circles. A 150mm f/1.8 projection lens for instance. Potentially with tilt and shift options as provided by the 4x5 or other camera. So a very high camera resolution may slow the whole stitching process down too much, I was considering using a 24MP camera.


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Scanners are an interesting option, but not that easy to modify. Many models use 3 colour alternating light sources to get colour in a single pass that doesn't work when fitted to a camera!
For colour images 3 separate scans are required with a different filter for each, as each scan takes several seconds this is every bit as slow as stitching on a rig that allows quick sliding between positions.

I've seen some interesting sea-scapes taken with a scanning back the wave movement gives very different water images in each of the 3 colours while the land portions line up perfectly. The cost of the scanner that's known to work is over £50 too much for the difficulty in moding for me -
I'm not good at soldering and electronics so there's a significant chance the scanner won't work in the end. Pre-made scanning backs tend to be more than I'd pay for a car...

It should be possible to build a functional generic adapter with stuff I have stashed in my workshop / camera gear with no more than £10 worth of extras.

It certainly won't be a fast system to use but large format never is. The attraction is more the movements than the resolution - shooting the image made on the ground glass might even work out to explore these possibilities without the extra DIY which is one of the reasons the project is still just an intellectual exercise.

Friends


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Epson V500 or V600 should be inexpensive, less than $50. One pass, though not terribly fast, I'd guess as fast or faster than any comparably priced xy solution to move camera. More than a few seconds, more like at least a minute if not 2 or 3 depending on size & resolution of scanned area. Can be done without modifying scanner.

My notion is to build nesting wooden boxes for focusing, unmodified scanner in place of film, a process lens with over 24" image circle. Smile Replace the scanner with whiteboard, look through small hole in lens board to focus.

Or a "reversed" document-projector type setup.


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Epson V500 or V600 should be inexpensive, less than $50. One pass, though not terribly fast, I'd guess as fast or faster than any comparably priced xy solution to move camera. More than a few seconds, more like at least a minute if not 2 or 3 depending on size & resolution of scanned area. Can be done without modifying scanner.

My notion is to build nesting wooden boxes for focusing, unmodified scanner in place of film, a process lens with over 24" image circle. Smile Replace the scanner with whiteboard, look through small hole in lens board to focus.

Or a "reversed" document-projector type setup.


Are you SURE they would be suitable. Most single pass scanners use 3 colour LEDs to provide colour info. That doesn't work when the subject is more than a few inches away.


PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
DConvert wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Epson V500 or V600 should be inexpensive, less than $50. One pass, though not terribly fast, I'd guess as fast or faster than any comparably priced xy solution to move camera. More than a few seconds, more like at least a minute if not 2 or 3 depending on size & resolution of scanned area. Can be done without modifying scanner.

My notion is to build nesting wooden boxes for focusing, unmodified scanner in place of film, a process lens with over 24" image circle. Smile Replace the scanner with whiteboard, look through small hole in lens board to focus.

Or a "reversed" document-projector type setup.


Are you SURE they would be suitable. Most single pass scanners use 3 colour LEDs to provide colour info. That doesn't work when the subject is more than a few inches away.


? confused

Replace ground glass with scanner bed instead of film. Both V500 and V600 are optical scanners. Simply disconnect the led or florescent scan light.. Use instead the light from technical camera lens. Smile


PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2020 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://youtu.be/pNEyIt0yqUU

https://www.popsci.com/diy/article/2009-06/old-flatbed-scanner-50mm-lens-amazing-130-megapixel-scancam/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectese/sets/72157623187612134


PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi,

I also noticed the problem of my Mamiya bellows with low possible amout of movements when focussing close to infinity. I finally made a bag bellows as I described here:

http://forum.mflenses.com/home-made-bag-bellows-for-mamiya-645-auto-bellows-t81414.html

One picture showing how it looks like is shown in the thread

http://forum.mflenses.com/technical-camera-mamiya-auto-bellows-645-t81283.html




So the bag bellows solved the problem with movements. My next problem however was which lenses to use. Originally I used The Pentacon Six lenses and this also works, but all P6 lenses are quite heavy.


So I adapted then a solinar 85 to fit into the P6 mount adapter on the Mamiya bellows:




It works quite good and can be used to gain some experience with technical cameras especially swing and tilt:


For rise and fall however a wide angle lense would be helpful and so far I did not find a sufficiently cheap and appropriate one.

Best regards
Andreas


PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1

Looks like fun.

Making stuff yourself is satisfying. Often cheaper as well.
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