who made the first floating element design?

hoanpham · Expire: 2015-01-18

I was wondering for a long time.

Pentax K28/2 'distagon' and Tak 15/3.5 Asph were designed by Zeiss with floating element.
Nikon used floating element with own name 'CRC' on among their 35/1.4, 28/2.

I checked wiki, but was not enlighted.
Any other sources about the design and history?

WolverineX · Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:25 am Post subject:

Minolta lenses with a floating element optical system are:

17mm f-4 MD
20mm f-2.8 MD
24mm f-2.8 MD VFC
28mm f-2 MD
35mm f-2.8 Shift CA
Apparently the MD 24mm f2.8 and MD 35mm f1.8 wideangle lenses also have floating elements
most of these lenses were introduced in 1977

ForenSeil · Joined: 15 Apr 2011 Posts: 2726 Location: Kiel, Germany.

I guess this floating element technique was generally known and technically possible a long time before it hit the market. Similar to autofocus, enlargements, apochromats and many other camera techniques Smile

.

WolverineX · Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 11:05 am Post subject:

manual nikkors with floating element

13/5.6 K ('75),ai ('77),ais ('82)
15/5.6 qd.c ('73)
15/5.6 k,ai ('76)
15/3.5 ai ('78 ),ais ('81)
18/3.5 ais ('81)
20/2.8 ais ('84)
24/2.8 k ('75),ai ('77),ais ('81)
24/2 ai ('77),ais ('81)
28/2 k ('75),ai ('77),ais ('81)
28/2N c ('70)
28/2.8 ais ('81)
35/1.4N c ('70)
35/1.4 k ('75),ai ('77),ais ('81)
85/1.4 ais ('81)
55/2.8 micro ais ('79)
105/2.8 micro ais ('81)

Sevo · Expire: 2012-12-03

The Meyer Domiron 50/2 (presented 1960) had a floating element, which might put it first, at least where small format still photography primes are concerned. Mamiya had 50 and 65mm lenses with a (manually, by an extra ring) floating group for the RB67 from the late sixties on, which also preceded the already mentioned Nikon, Zeiss and Pentax lenses.

I suppose motion picture zoom lenses may have come first - most high quality zoom lenses silently incorporate floating elements.

koji · Expire: 2012-12-27

Minolta patented the floating system at 1958, but the first consumer/production lens with it
was Nikkor 24mm F2.8 at 1967.
(Source: The foundation and development of photographic lenses, by Toshinobu Ogura
ISBN4-257-12012-6 C0072 P200E, Publisher: Asahi Sonorama Co. Ltd.)

It sounds strange, but they traded their patent each other. It was quite commonly
done while they were fighting against the traditional camera industries of Europe.
(Examples: quick return mirror, penta prism, auto exposure, etc.)

exaklaus · Expire: 2011-12-02

DSG · Joined: 04 Mar 2007 Posts: 544 Location: London, UK.

The Canon FD 85mm f1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical and the FD 85mm f1.2 L both have floating elements. The former was released in 1975 and the latter around 1980. Heres a quote from the mir.com.my site:

"The exclusive Canon Floating System ensures high performance even at the close focusing distance. Along with the elimination of flare at the maximum lens opening, equal effort was placed with successful results in producing fine resolution of image at smaller apertures during daytime photography."

And:

"This lens sets another precedent in being the first telephoto to incorporate Canon's Floating System, insuring good resolution even at the closest focusing distance of 0.9 meter. Perfect for available-light portraiture, this lens is the essence of high performance and provide a high degree of detail even under extremely low light conditions with its aspherical element".

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

The first floating element used in a lens happened, simply, with the first zoom lens released Wink

, of which I ignore the date.
Regarding the use of a floating element in a prime photographic lens, the first recorded case is a Nikkor lens of 1967.
There are, however, references that this technique was used even before by Erhard Glatzel in the creation of cinema lenses
for the Arriflex (Zeiss) line. The floating element was a necessary requirement for the fast wide angle lenses that were necessary
for the cinema industry; otherwise, it would have been impossible to have those lenses focus correctly at close distances.
For this reason, Erhard Glatzel is generally considered the "inventor" (although the term if taken literally is surely inappropriate)
of the concept of a floating element in a prime lens scheme.
The first Zeiss photographic prime lens created with the use of a floating element was the Distagon 2/28, designed by the same Erhard
Glatzel and first prototyped around 1970; because of this use of the floating element, which was a direct derivation from Glatzel's
experience with Arriflex cinema lenses, the Distagon 2/28 was quickly nicknamed the "Hollywood" Distagon.
And the rest, as they say, is history.

Hope this helps Smile

mdarnton · Joined: 03 Mar 2012 Posts: 77 Location: Chicago

Don't forget the Olympus Zuiko macro, 50/3.5. That was around 1971 or so.

Attila · Expire: 2025-11-18

hoanpham · Expire: 2015-01-18

Thanks everyone.

Koji, patent office is a good place to visit. I had been there several time in my city, researching for something else. Pretty much things are searchable and open for public, but not through the internet. Thanks.
Sevo, Klaus and Attila, thanks for this extra info - you keep all paper?
Orio, Nice summary.

JohnBar · Joined: 21 Jun 2012 Posts: 581 Location: Liverpool

sichko · Joined: 20 Jun 2008 Posts: 2475 Location: South West UK

Attila · Expire: 2025-11-18