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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Excellent info, thanks. Voigtlander had that lead you mention for one simple reason - they didn't get bombed like Zeiss and others did. Consider how much Zeiss lost when Dresden was bombed - the blueprints for the Contax cameras and others were destroyed despite being stored in a safe two storeys underground!

That BIOS report is the one I referred to. The only info from it I have seen is contained in the Lens Vade Mecum and was largely an inventory and short description of the works.

It should be noted that the British did a lot to re-establish commercial industrial production in their zone of occupation, which included Voigtlander's factory in Braunschweig. Sadly we didn't show the same foresight with Volkswagen.


Thanks for those observations, Ian.

The BIOS reports are well worth looking out. In the one on Voigtlander there's a chilling comment on the conditions under which the firm's "600 slave workers" had been housed and the Franke & Heidecke document details that company's struggle to resist takeover by the Zeiss organisation and its problems over patent disputes not only with them but also with Voigtlander. There are also some tantalising details of how the pre-war German industry was directly and covertly subsidized both at home and in key export markets and references to the key role that Zeiss played in co-ordinating those activities. It all points to a dimension that we never eally see in the readily available literature on the camera and lens industries.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
Stephen,
hard to find in English. A very good source would be this book from Udo Afalter:
http://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B008OHED7C/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
Unfortunately only available in German.

Also this books from Claus Prochnow would be quite interesting but also Geman only:
http://www.amazon.de/Voigtlaender-Report-Kleinbild-Sucherkameras-1939-1982/dp/389506288X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436002571&sr=1-1&keywords=voigtl%C3%A4nder+lindemann
http://www.amazon.de/Voigtl%C3%A4nder-Report-Spiegelreflex-Stereokameras-1902-1982/dp/3895062510/ref=pd_sim_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0S74R750654TS0X7PSYC
http://www.amazon.de/Voigtl%C3%A4nder-Report-3-Platten-Rollfilmkameras/dp/389506274X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1SKV1F6W5QQ7G6G4RS2P

Most of the information is available primarily in German as this company was basically an Austrian (foundet 1756 in Vienna) and later on a German one. Johann Christoph Voigtlaender (the founder of the company) was basically Austrian and his company moved only to Braunschweig/Germany (1849) later because of the bigger glass industry there in the old times. 1898 the family company was turned into a shareholder company and 1925 Schering AG took over the majority of shares up to 1956 when they sold it to the Zeiss Foundation as already stated.
The big advantage of Voigtlaender compared to Zeiss and others was that the company was not destroyed during the 2nd WW. So it was relatively intact and also not plundered by the Russians such as Zeiss.
However, the have been without any doubt the most advanced camera producer also in terms of know how after the WW II far ahead of Zeiss and Leitz. So actually it was a pity that this company got lost somehow during the fusion with Zeiss Ikon.


Thomas - thanks for those linnks and comments. Even after the firm's fusion with Zeiss in the late 50s it does seem to have held on to its character for quite a while. The owner of the first photo-retail outfit I worked for in the mid-60s had a high regard for Voigtlander and regularly visited the factory. He said it was quite unlike any other firm he had first hand knowledge of. Sadly, back then I never had the sense to learn more from him.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, Zeiss Ikon, from it's foundation from four independent companies until the post-war split was totally dominant over the German camera industry, not only because it was a corporate monster but because the govt gave it preferential treatment and funding.

The whole reason why Voigtlander had to design unusual cameras like the Vitesse with it's plunger advance and the Prominent with a number of unique features or Nagel (Kodak AG) did with the Retinas is that they had to work around the Zeiss held patents. The quirky features are almost always due to having to avoid infringing a Zeiss patent.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:

Thomas - thanks for those linnks and comments. Even after the firm's fusion with Zeiss in the late 50s it does seem to have held on to its character for quite a while. The owner of the first photo-retail outfit I worked for in the mid-60s had a high regard for Voigtlander and regularly visited the factory. He said it was quite unlike any other firm he had first hand knowledge of. Sadly, back then I never had the sense to learn more from him.


Well, the deadly competition between the state sponsored GDR camera industry (VEB CZJ and VEB Pentacon) and the independent Zeiss Ikon/W. Germany counterpart led finally to the dead of the Western German part of it and consequently also to the dead of the eastern part because of the end of the regime. Maybe it would have been a better idea to leave the Voigtlaender brand instead to avoid the direct competition between the two Zeiss companies with totally different quality and price politics. Leitz finally survived because of the lack of direct competition from the eastern side of the German camera industry and with a little bit of help from an Austrian photo enthusiast with deep pockets till date. Today both Voigtlaender and Zeiss are more or less brands of Cosina/Japan. Happy end? I don't know.
So, Voigtlaender moved from Austria to Germany to die and Leitz camera business was taken over by an Austrian to survive. Wink


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As far as I know , Cosina has a license to use Voigtländer name for its lenses. Are you sure that the brand Zeiss is in the same hands.
Don't you think that Zeiss uses Cosina as a subcontractant for production ?


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It had very little to do with East vs West, it was the Japanese success and the German lack of progress that killed the German camera industry.

The Japanese success was in no small part due to the legal position in Japan over the German patents - the German patents were simply not valid so the Japanese were free to copy the best German designs and that is what they did, they then improved on those designs.

Zeiss Ikon and Voigtlander both managed to make a complete mess of the transition to SLRs too. ZI produced the outdated leaf shutter Contaflex with only 3 lens options and the ridiculously complex and overpriced Contarex; both looked very unattractive copared to the Japanese competition. Voigtlander produced the hideously complex leaf shutter Bessamatic and Ultramatic and by the time they came up with a good focal plane design in the Icarex, the Japanese had long passed them by in technology and it has to be said, reliability too. Today, repairmen run in fear of German SLRs of the 50s and 60s as they are so complex and hard to repair.

The Exakta and Praktica from the East were good cameras when released, but failed to keep up with technology too so were looking outdated within a few years and never came close to selling in the numbers cameras like the Pentax Spotmatic and Nikkormat sold in. Pentacon sold well in the West because they were priced below most of the Japanese options, but if you could afford a Spotmatic, you didn't bother with a Praktica. Russian Zenits sold well too because they were the cheapest SLRs on the market and they had the M42 mount so you could put all kinds of lenses on them, not just the Russian lenses.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
As far as I know , Cosina has a license to use Voigtländer name for its lenses. Are you sure that the brand Zeiss is in the same hands.
Don't you think that Zeiss uses Cosina as a subcontractant for production ?


When Thomas talks about Zeiss, best to ignore him, he seems to have this irrational dislike of Zeiss.

He is talking nonsense when he says Zeiss is a brand of a Japanese company.

Zeiss is still a German company, they still design their lenses in Germany and they still make lenses in Germany.

However, since the mid 1970s, they have had partnerships with lensmakers in Japan to produce some of their lenses. This began with the short-lived working arrangement with Pentax and really got going with the production of the Contax SLR camera bodies by Yashica and some of the lenses for the Contax SLR system by the optical division of Yashica (Yashica had bought out the Tomioka factory a few years earlier). That partnership continued after Kyocera bought Yashica in the mid 1980s and the Contax G RF/AF system cameras were made by Kyocera and the lenses by the ex-Tomioka plant.

Today, Zeiss and Leica both contract with Japanese companies for some of their production. Both are quite tight-lipped about the exact arrangements however.

Zeiss licenses their name to Sony to be used on lenses designed by Zeiss but produced by Sony. Leica does the same thing with Panasonic and Schneider-Kreuznach does too with Samsung and Kodak. This is nothing new. Zeiss Ikon cameras often carried lenses made by outside contractors - Rodenstock made the Pantar lenses for the Contaflex and the Hensoldt factory made most of the low-end triplets found on the cheaper fixed lens ZI cameras.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
As far as I know , Cosina has a license to use Voigtländer name for its lenses. Are you sure that the brand Zeiss is in the same hands.
Don't you think that Zeiss uses Cosina as a subcontractant for production ?


Yes, that's true. Basically Cosina is producing for Zeiss and does not own the patent right's opposite to Voigtlaender where everything is owned by Cosina. However, actually both are lenses manufactured by Cosina.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It really is irrelevant where the factory that makes the Zeiss lenses is located.

They remain Zeiss designs and are built to Zeiss standards.

Voigtlander lenses are Cosina designs made to Cosina standards.

Dante Stella's piece from Camera Lens News No. 3:
Quote:

In a time, when the cost of maufacturing high quality optics in Germany was on the rise, but was flat in Japan, lens price became the limiting factor for the success of the new Contax. To free the young system of this limit, Carl Zeiss transferred the production of lenses for the Contax system to the country that was buying most of them anyway. In favour of this decision was the fact that Japan has, as well as Germany, a very mature infrastructure regarding the production of photo optics. Also, Carl Zeiss has had a strong presence there already. So Carl Zeiss transferred machinery, know-how, and personnel to Japan and built up a lens production facility that could produce Contax lenses in accordance with Carl Zeiss quality standards.

In recent years the cost advantage of quality optics production in favour of Japan has decreased. Top quality optics made in Japan are no longer really cheaper than those made in Germany. Today, manufacturing costs alone could not justify the move from Oberkochen to Oume. But the strong demand from the Japanese market for Contax lenses would again lead to the de-cision, to manufacture them where most of the customers are anyway.


http://www.dantestella.com/zeiss/japan.html

B&H has a good article too:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/Carl-Zeiss.jsp

Quote:
The name Carl Zeiss has been synonymous with fine photographic optics for well over a hundred years. Today, in a world dominated by the likes of Nikon and Canon (not that there's anything wrong with that mind you), the Zeiss nameplate not only continues to survive, but continues to represent the highest standards of lens design and optical performance. For SLR and DSLR enthusiasts, Zeiss currently manufacturers a short lineup of manual focus, fixed focal length optics that produce imagery that has a look and feel quite different from most all of the optics available from OEM and third-party lens manufacturers.

Though no longer physically manufactured in Germany, the current offerings from Zeiss are manufactured in Japan under the supervision of Zeiss technicians whose job it is maintain a century old reputation of building the finest optics.

From a construction standpoint the new Zeiss lenses speak to you the moment you pick them up. Unlike most lenses made these days the Zeiss optics are manufactured from honest-to-gosh metal alloy and have the heft and solidity of lenses made back in the pre- polycarbonate days. The focusing barrel is tight and smooth throughout the range, and the aperture rings (remember aperture rings?) are equally smooth with clearly defined detents in half-stop intervals. Each lens features a depth-of-field scale, aperture/center index scale, distance scale, and infrared scale. The word 'Oooooh' is commonly heard from those picking up any of these lenses for the first time.

Optically speaking, the Zeiss lenses we tested maintain the highest standards of resolution and bokeh qualities. What's in focus is dead-sharp - even wide open - and what isn't in focus displays the loveliest qualities of tone and color gradations. Each lens utilizes 9 curved aperture blades to best ensure natural looking, circular characteristics in out-of-focus highlight areas. In a nutshell, these lenses are awfully sweet to use, and you can ditto these comments for the photographs they produce. All of the lenses in this series feature Zeiss T* coatings to ensure neutral color, high contrast and color saturation levels, and minimal flare.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

When Thomas talks about Zeiss, best to ignore him, he seems to have this irrational dislike of Zeiss.

He is talking nonsense when he says Zeiss is a brand of a Japanese company.

Zeiss is still a German company, they still design their lenses in Germany and they still make lenses in Germany.



Your offensive and aggressive way of communication is very annoying to say it very politely.

Zeiss is nowadays nothing else than a design office for optical lenses in various fields, especially for the industry. No camera lenses are produced in Germany nowadays. The ZM lenses are all produced by Cosina/Japan.
If something is labeled as "Zeiss" nowadays it does only indicate that the product was originally designed by Zeiss but nothing else. Even my Logitech web cam carries a "Carl Zeiss Tessar" logo.

I never had anything against Zeiss. I take it as it is and see the difference between the various products produced with a Zeiss branding in various factories over the years. Not everything which is carrying such a label is automatically "state of the art". That is the big difference between us. No brand in no field is automatically "the best". Obviously you are blind in that respect.
For instance in the field of spectacle lenses I can tell you that the Hoya plastic lenses are far superior compared to the Zeiss ones in terms of durability. That is my personal experience which you cannot deny or state as nonsense. Never.

At least since the 1980's no photo camera lens was ever produced by Zeiss in W. Germany and since the 1990's neither in Jena.

Don't tell fairy tales and don't blame me to state nonsense!


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes I know that Sony uses the name Zeiss thanks to a license. What is not clear for me is how far Zeiss is involved in the design and has a word to say. At the end the user is lost and of course should care only about the result.
I bought a FE 35 2.8 Zeiss Sony for its features and performances and I am happy with it. I am afraid that the Zeiss logo is there to justify the price tag....

I read somewhere the the new Zeiss Batis ( not a Sony Zeiss) FE 85 f1.8 has been designed by Tamron !

My current collection of Zeiss lenses which I used on my Sony A7 are a Planar Rollei 50 1.8 , a Pancolar Zebra , a J8 , a J3, and the FE 35 2.8.
Only fake Zeiss !


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't forget the Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM and the discontinued Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM are both made in Germany. Wink
http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/camera_lenses/zeiss-ikon/distagont2815zm.html


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

When Thomas talks about Zeiss, best to ignore him, he seems to have this irrational dislike of Zeiss.

He is talking nonsense when he says Zeiss is a brand of a Japanese company.

Zeiss is still a German company, they still design their lenses in Germany and they still make lenses in Germany.



Your offensive and aggressive way of communication is very annoying to say it very politely.

Zeiss is nowadays nothing else than a design office for optical lenses in various fields, especially for the industry. No camera lenses are produced in Germany nowadays. The ZM lenses are all produced by Cosina/Japan.
If something is labeled as "Zeiss" nowadays it does only indicate that the product was originally designed by Zeiss but nothing else. Even my Logitech web cam carries a "Carl Zeiss Tessar" logo.

I never had anything against Zeiss. I take it as it is and see the difference between the various products produced with a Zeiss branding in various factories over the years. Not everything which is carrying such a label is automatically "state of the art". That is the big difference between us. No brand in no field is automatically "the best". Obviously you are blind in that respect.
For instance in the field of spectacle lenses I can tell you that the Hoya plastic lenses are far superior compared to the Zeiss ones in terms of durability. That is my personal experience which you cannot deny or state as nonsense. Never.

At least since the 1980's no photo camera lens was ever produced by Zeiss in W. Germany and since the 1990's neither in Jena.

Don't tell fairy tales and don't blame me to state nonsense!


After writing the above nonsense it would be better if you just stayed off the topic of Zeiss altogether as you clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memetph wrote:
yes I know that Sony uses the name Zeiss thanks to a license. What is not clear for me is how far Zeiss is involved in the design and has a word to say. At the end the user is lost and of course should care only about the result.
I bought a FE 35 2.8 Zeiss Sony for its features and performances and I am happy with it. I am afraid that the Zeiss logo is there to justify the price tag....

I read somewhere the the new Zeiss Batis ( not a Sony Zeiss) FE 85 f1.8 has been designed by Tamron !

My current collection of Zeiss lenses which I used on my Sony A7 are a Planar Rollei 50 1.8 , a Pancolar Zebra , a J8 , a J3, and the FE 35 2.8.
Only fake Zeiss !


Nothing fake about the Rollei Planar or the Pancolar!

The Planar is the final iteration of the Ultron design of Albrecht Tronnier which began at Voigtlander in the 1950s and was continued at Zeiss. It's different to the Zeiss Planar T* 1.7/50 but is arguably equally good, they differ in their characteristics so it's a matter of taste more than anything, both being great lenses.

Zeiss Jena was the original company and has just as much right to the name, in fact, moreso, than the Zeiss Foundation setup in West Germany after the war in Oberkochen. Therefore there is nothing fake about the Zeiss Pancolar, it has as much right to carry the Zeiss name as the contemporary Zeiss Planar made in W Germany.

I own both the original Zeiss Sonnars 1.5/50 and 2/50 and several copies of the J8 and J3 Russian copies. There is very little difference in quality between the 1950s Russians and the Zeiss originals. From the mid 60s onwards, quality became more variable with the Russians, but the early ones before that are very good lenses indeed.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Don't forget the Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM and the discontinued Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM are both made in Germany. Wink
http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/camera_lenses/zeiss-ikon/distagont2815zm.html


OK, I haven't checked the recent developments. Obviously they changed their strategy and re-insourced some production again.
So what. I am not really impressed now.
Fact remains that with obviously very rare exceptions (which I obviously was not aware of) the rest of all my comments are still valid and true for the remaining 99,9% of the produced camera lenses which are carrying a Zeiss logo nowadays.
Thanks for the information, Calvin. I am rather surprised.
The reason behind would be quite interesting. Maybe they are afraid of any knowledge transfer to Cosina? Most probably.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
Don't forget the Distagon T* 2,8/15 ZM and the discontinued Sonnar T* 2/85 ZM are both made in Germany. Wink
http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/camera_lenses/zeiss-ikon/distagont2815zm.html


OK, I haven't checked the recent developments. Obviously they changed their strategy and re-insourced some production again.
So what. I am not really impressed now.
Fact remains that with obviously very rare exceptions (which I obviously was not aware of) the rest of all my comments are still valid and true for the remaining 99,9% of the produced camera lenses which are carrying a Zeiss logo nowadays.
Thanks for the information, Calvin. I am rather surprised.
The reason behind would be quite interesting. Maybe they are afraid of any knowledge transfer to Cosina? Most probably.


That was the worst attempt at admitting you were wrong I can remember reading!

You really need to work on that skill because you are wrong often.

Your 99.9% figure is pure nonsense, maybe you should email the very helpful people at Zeiss and ask them what lenses they still make in Germany, it will be a very long list as their entire cine lens lineup is made in Germany.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
We all make mistakes as we can't know/remember everything in the world. I have to admit I had made many mistakes at this forum in the past. Embarassed

Personally, I don't care about where they assembled the lens as long as they keeps the quality of the lens.


PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
We all make mistakes as we can't know/remember everything in the world. I have to admit I had made many mistakes at this forum in the past. Embarassed

Personally, I don't care about where they assembled the lens as long as they keeps the quality of the lens.


+10

To err is human. Wink

Globalisation since the 1970s has changed everything so the old model of quality being found in certain places is no longer valid. Corporations are now global entities and can source parts or do final assembly almost anywhere.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ian commented yesterday that
It had very little to do with East vs West, it was the Japanese success and the German lack of progress that killed the German camera industry.

The Japanese success was in no small part due to the legal position in Japan over the German patents - the German patents were simply not valid so the Japanese were free to copy the best German designs and that is what they did, they then improved on those designs.

which I think needs a bit of amplification and modification if those less well-informed in our community are not to be somewhat misled.

The Japanese industry's post WWII success owed little or nothing to being free to copy invalid German patents - in fact, there never was any free-for-all access to international German patents. Both the British and US governments set up "Custodians of Enemy Property" during the war to control and manage the potentially valuable "intellectual property" they constituted. Once the war ended, the victorious Allies began a large scale process of investigation of all German industries which was intended to be part of a reparations process. Japan, being on the losing side, was certainly not a beneficiary of this hoped-for largesse. I guess that Ian really means that the Japanese (and everyone else) could use freely any material in patents which had lapsed at the end of their lives. Most patents were for 15 years and in some cases could be renewed for a further period, but because the Third Reich ceased to be a member of the 'respectable' international community in either 1939 or 1941 the chances of renewal disappeared. By the late 40s, most of the original Leica patents had lapsed, as had most, if not all, the most important ones of Franke & Heidecke, Deckel, and Gauthier.

But even so, the growth of the Japanese industry had much more to do with other broader factors. Amongst these was its early encouragement by the occupying powers to contribute to Japanese economic growth by helping tor reduce the country's dependency on US financial support. Adding to that was the large scale availability of 'outcasts' from the Imperial Army and Navy's large technological sections which had worked with industry during the war developing and making high grade optical-mechnical devices for war (optical munitions). By the mid-50s Japan had an increasingly successful camera industry which subsequently, rather than copying and improving German designs, was essentially following new paths in developing both SLR and 'compact automatic' designs that could be made by mass production methods. The Japanese industry's success was really due to product and process innovation coupled with state support and some very astute export marketing.

For those who seek a more nuanced view of how and why the German camera industry died, there is some readable scholarly material in print. If anyone's interested I'll be glad to give you the (short!) bibliography.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I had the impression the Japanese were not amused by the incredible cost of German cameras and believed they could do nearly as well or even better at much lower cost.

With the dollar at a relatively astronomical level post war, an export item like the Canon and Nikon Rangefinders was valuable. The flood of GIs in the Korean war, and of course DDD's adoption of some Canon lenses, like the 135, in his work for Life, was a boost.

By the 70's all you need to do is compare prices in the magazine Ads. Not only are they cheaper but most are SLRs, which everyone loved. I don't think the Germans could match the SLR price points...too busy building volkswagons....and that happened to be the next target for cars like the Datsun 510.

As to who copied what, obviously the mounts were copied, though not very well by Nikon LOL.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This has turned into an interesting thread. I came to say that all is lost. The person wrote down the wrong number for me. I was trying to be polite and give them time, but in the meantime they sold it to someone else. It was an elderly person so it is a learning experience in regards to contact information. Needless to say-super bummed.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ohhhh ! What a shame. Maybe you might look for another one with an Ultron instead - you can bet that the minute you get it, another with a Nokton will turn up ! Or perhaps try for a Bessamatic or Ultramatic with a Septon. Or a 40mm Skopagon on its own . . . Wink


PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:
Ohhhh ! What a shame. Maybe you might look for another one with an Ultron instead - you can bet that the minute you get it, another with a Nokton will turn up ! Or perhaps try for a Bessamatic or Ultramatic with a Septon. Or a 40mm Skopagon on its own . . . Wink


All those are very desirable! That Skopagon was a long way ahead of it's time. Smile


PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:
Ohhhh ! What a shame. Maybe you might look for another one with an Ultron instead - you can bet that the minute you get it, another with a Nokton will turn up ! Or perhaps try for a Bessamatic or Ultramatic with a Septon. Or a 40mm Skopagon on its own . . . Wink


Funny you say that. I just have acquired a Voigtlander Septon on a Bessamatic body for $USD 108.00. A couple days before the prominent debacle. Just waiting for it to be shipped and to get the DKL adapter. It's the only thing that's making the pain of the nokton bearable...


PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You see ! It's a funny old world . . . Very Happy
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