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Voigtlander prominent nokton 1.5/50...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject: Voigtlander prominent nokton 1.5/50... Reply with quote
I'm in need of help again. I was wondering if there is any way of adapting a prominent nokton 1.5 to a canon 70D? from what I have heard, it is a rather nice lens, and I think I've come across a good deal. I am thinking of buying it regardless as I believe I will have to go mirror less eventually. But I wanted to know if it is at all adaptable to eos, even if a rather expensive adapter. I would go the extra mile in time and money to make it happen if I can get infinity focus and not just macro capabilities etc.

Also, does anyone have any experience with the lens? There doesn't seem to be that much about it online, but from what little info there is, most of it is good. I'm thinking of selling of a couple 50's to get this baby. It also comes with a prominent II body and 2 other lenses, so I guess I could shoot with that for a bit till I get my mirror less if it's not adaptable. Thanks in advance.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't think that the Prominent lenses are adaptable to a Canon SLR. Prominent is a RF camera and there are adapters available for some of these lenses to M39/LTM including the necessary helicoid for focusing as the lens alone has only aperture setting. So from my understanding it's only usable on mirrorless cameras which are capable to take such RF lenses. The register distance on SLR's will not allow the use of RF lenses.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes that is a shame. I believe I will still buy it and use it on the Prominent II until I finally get a mirrorless. At this price, it seems like a good investment. I really like the few images I've seen and if worst comes to worst, I think I can sell it for more than I will pay. Thanks for your reply.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
StillSanj wrote:
Yes that is a shame. I believe I will still buy it and use it on the Prominent II until I finally get a mirrorless. At this price, it seems like a good investment. I really like the few images I've seen and if worst comes to worst, I think I can sell it for more than I will pay. Thanks for your reply.


Those Prominent adapters are very expensive. The question is if it's worth at all.
I don't think that the quality is as good as the contemporary version in LTM which may be cheaper as no expensive adapter will be needed. BTW, I have the modern CV 50/1.5 in LTM and it's indeed a very nice lens. However, I cannot really say anything about the old one.


PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 1950s Nokton is a very interesting lens. It was never sold in large numbers when the Prominent camera was in production and, probably because many of the cameras were discarded in the late 1960s and 70s as the "SLR Revolution" progressed, it's now quite uncommon. But that isn't what makes it interesting. When it was designed, Voigtlander was entering its "innovation period" when the firm's designers (whoever they were) seized on the latest glass developments and optical design theory to produce a family of lenses for both the Prominent and the succeeding Bessamatic/Ultramatic slr models which were then acclaimed as being "state of the art".

Comparing it to current high speed rangefinder lenses will - I expect - show that overall it isn't as "good", but the really important cconsideration is to see how "good" it was set alongside its contemporaries. If it's priced reasonably for you, then I would say "Go ahead and buy it and treat yourself to an adapter for whatever mirrorless camera you plan to get". It's a sufficiently interesting lens to (almost certainly) guarantee you a good sale if you later decide to part with it.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:
The 1950s Nokton is a very interesting lens. It was never sold in large numbers when the Prominent camera was in production and, probably because many of the cameras were discarded in the late 1960s and 70s as the "SLR Revolution" progressed, it's now quite uncommon. But that isn't what makes it interesting. When it was designed, Voigtlander was entering its "innovation period" when the firm's designers (whoever they were) seized on the latest glass developments and optical design theory to produce a family of lenses for both the Prominent and the succeeding Bessamatic/Ultramatic slr models which were then acclaimed as being "state of the art".

Comparing it to current high speed rangefinder lenses will - I expect - show that overall it isn't as "good", but the really important cconsideration is to see how "good" it was set alongside its contemporaries. If it's priced reasonably for you, then I would say "Go ahead and buy it and treat yourself to an adapter for whatever mirrorless camera you plan to get". It's a sufficiently interesting lens to (almost certainly) guarantee you a good sale if you later decide to part with it.


Stephen, you are certainly right. The Prominent is a collector's item as not too many copies have been produced at all and the "normal" lens was rather the Ultron or Skopar 50mm. So from the Prominet Nokton not too many are in existence at all.
However, I have no idea how good they are selling or sought after nowadays. The Voigtlaender Prominent to LTM adapter was about 300 Euros if I recall it rightly. That was for me the reason why I never intended to look for Prominent lenses and bought the contemporary LTM version of the Nokton instead.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for your responses. Yeah it is kind of a novelty lens, but there are adapters to be had for about 150, which isn't too bad. I'm trying to get it with a Skoparon and dynaron and prominent II body in excellent condition for 400. Their prices have been rising and I relieve it will be a good investment. However, I believe I can get a voigtlander septon in my canon 70D since its DKL mount I believe, so maybe I should pursue that for now. From what I've heard that's a rather nice lens itself.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I would say this was far more than a novelty lens.

In fact for about 3 years, in the late 50s, this was the best superspeed 50mm on earth, or that's my impression after research several years ago.


1950ish Voigtlander 50/1.5 original by unoh7, on Flickr

Here you see the very rare LTM version which will still bring 2K in Hong Kong today.

This is a legendary 50. But most were made for the prominent, as noted. More to the point would be some simple conversion to E mount.

It is the best of all classic sonnars, and that is really saying something. But the fundamental issue of a short register precludes use with prism bodies.

The excellent CV 50/1.5 is a direct copy of this lens. That copy is practically a cult lens today.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Novelty was a bad choice of words. I realize it wouldn't usually be the most economical choice in terms of tool. But as you said, it does have a cult appeal and when I get that mirror less it will rely give me something to look forward to. I have heard nothing but good things about it.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The old Nokton is a seven elements double Gauss design and the CV Nokton is a six elements double Gauss design with an aspherical element. The new one performs very differently to the old one.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
StillSanj wrote:
Novelty was a bad choice of words. I realize it wouldn't usually be the most economical choice in terms of tool. But as you said, it does have a cult appeal and when I get that mirror less it will rely give me something to look forward to. I have heard nothing but good things about it.


Be careful. I think only the 50mm Prominent lenses will work correctly with the special focusing adapter:
http://www.fotodioxpro.com/lens-mount-adapters/pro-lens-mount-adapter-focus-control-voigtlander-nokton-ultron-lenses-leicam-camera-body-adapter.html
And of course you need another adapter from Leica to mirrorless too if you don't go for a Leica or a Ricoh GXR-M.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
The old Nokton is a seven elements double Gauss design and the CV Nokton is a six elements double Gauss design with an aspherical element. The new one performs very differently to the old one.


Well, I would say it performs better than the old one because of the aspherical element. Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes. The new one is sharper and better corrected than the old one. Most of the old Nokton sold to East Asian as it has some character praised by some of the photographer here.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
Yes. The new one is sharper and better corrected than the old one. Most of the old Nokton sold to East Asian as it has some character praised by some of the photographer here.


Sometimes I am wondering if it has something to do with our genes or at least the cultural differences why such "characters" are so appreciated in some parts of the world and being considered as failure in some other regions. However, I am obviously not able to understand everything in our world. Wink


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
this is interesting:


to LTM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yeenon-VOIGTLANDER-Prominent-to-Leica-screw-mount-L39-M39-Helicoid-Adapter/251982949881?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D31729%26meid%3Dc8ee76a8fbf341f08d1943c7cd7142df%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D251569875452

to E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yeenon-VOIGTLANDER-Prominent-to-SONY-NEX-E-MOUNT-Helicoid-Adapter-/251586133017?nma=true&si=E3pJrRsvO72vLNCmItqdtM%252BJSfE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It look like a clean copy of the lens alone is regularly bringing 650 USD on the bay.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I myself am more about character than other aspects when it comes to lenses. The lens does go for 600+, and 1000+ with prominent II body so I figured if I make the purchase I could almost make my money back on selling the prominent II body and lenses, as the prominent II body is way more valueable than than prominent I. I am waiting for a call back to finalize the purchase, I appreciate all input and I appreciate the link. That looks like a good quality adapter and it isn't $300. I think it would be worth it.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi there, Uhoh7 - ! Is that your Nokton in the picture? Lucky you if it is - if so, any chance of seeing some results from it Very Happy

One thing, though. Is it a Sonnar-type derivative? Arthur Cox's Photographic Optics (10th edn) classes it in the 'Symetrical and allied types' category (p. 438) and the drawing nr S10 on p. 433 shows something which is not all like a 50mm Sonnar.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
scsambrook wrote:

One thing, though. Is it a Sonnar-type derivative? Arthur Cox's Photographic Optics (10th edn) classes it in the 'Symetrical and allied types' category (p. 438) and the drawing nr S10 on p. 433 shows something which is not all like a 50mm Sonnar.

I have mentioned in the above post is is a (double)Gauss type lens. It is mentioned in the patent document.



Quote:
This invention relates to a photographic objective of the modified Gauss-type, distinguished by very high light-transmitting power and anastigmatic flatness of field, which includes two lens groups located on the opposite sides of an inner diaphragm. Such variations of the Gauss-type can be corrected spherically, chromatically and for coma with 2. simultaneously resulting anastigmatic image field flattening within a field of vision of 30 extension, even in the case of very large relative apertures.

https://www.google.com.hk/patents/US2645155


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks, Calvin83 - !


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voigtlander 50/1.5 LTM orig by unoh7, on Flickr

This is not my copy, but in the dusty collection of the local camera shop owner, where I happened to see it attached to a Leica III x (not sure which). He lets me borrow it. But sadly the rear element has quite a bit of fungus. Everything else is fairly clean though, and I thought about swapping the prominent version's rear element, which I hear is identical.

My understanding is that it is a revised design of the basic CZJ 50/1.5, perhaps with less air, I can't remember offhand. Very few were made in LTM and the Prominent...well I'm not sure how many were sold. Nevertheless the lens was a sensation among the cognizenti of the time, and highly regarded in the late 50s as the best reportage 50 around.

It's a heavy build. I think Mandler's v1 50 Summilux is the lens which put this one off the throne. That's a great lens and they made many, but it still brings 1400 easy.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice bokeh quite similar to the new CV Nokton 50/1.5 LTM version I have:



So I don't really know whether it's worth to pay the double price just to have the "original" one if not for collection only purposes.
For my taste I would rather buy an extra lens together with the new one than spend all the budget for the old one. Wink
However, as always just a matter of taste and budget.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, the Nokton isn't a development of the Sonnar type, it's a double gauss type, the ancestor of the Septon and Ultron SLR lenses.



Quote:
Voigtländer also made some remarkable lenses.
The most famous probably is the NOKTON 50mm f1.5 lens from 1951.
With its 7 elementen in 5 groups and splitted frontlens the NOKTON is regarded to be one of the best 50mm f/1.5 lenzen ever, better than the Leitz Summarit and certainly as good as the Zeiss Sonnar.


Voigtlander had a clear lead in lenses for 35mm in the immediate post-war period, largely due to the company having been located in the west and surviving the war largely unscathed - in the Lens Vade Mecum is an excerpt from a report by a British Commission that describes the state of the factory when they examined it in 1946.

Zeiss didn't get their act together in terms of new lens designs until the second half of the 1950s, and a large part of that was their acquisition of Voigtlander in 1953 - Zeiss wanted to get their hands on Albrect Tronnier and his lens design team. The Sonnar 1.5/50 is an impressive lens but it's a 1930s design from long before the use of computers so Zeiss really needed to update their lens designs to compete.

Leitz didn't start producing lenses of better quality than most of the other German makers until the 1960s, probably this was due to a conscious decision to avoid the fate of the other German camera makers by not bothering to compete with the Japanese in the mass market and instead, produce products solely for the upper-tier niche of the market.

So if you want the best RF lens made upto 1951, then you need a Zeiss Sonnar 1.5/50, if you want the best RF lens made in the 1950s, then you need the Voigtlander Nokton 1.5/50. If you want the best RF lens made after that, it;s probably, as Uhoh said, a Leitz Summilux.

I own two Sonnar 1.5/50s, coated and uncoated; still dream of owning a Nokton, doubt I will ever be able to afford a Summilux. Smile


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

Zeiss didn't get their act together in terms of new lens designs until the second half of the 1950s, and a large part of that was their acquisition of Voigtlander in 1953 - Zeiss wanted to get their hands on Albrect Tronnier and his lens design team. The Sonnar 1.5/50 is an impressive lens but it's a 1930s design from long before the use of computers so Zeiss really needed to update their lens designs to compete.


A new fairy tale.

Schering AG (the owner of Voigtlaender since 1925) sold Voigtlaender to the Carl Zeiss Foundation in 1956 which resulted that Voigtlaender became a part of Zeiss Ikon AG/W. Germany thereafter.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
tb_a wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

Zeiss didn't get their act together in terms of new lens designs until the second half of the 1950s, and a large part of that was their acquisition of Voigtlander in 1953 - Zeiss wanted to get their hands on Albrect Tronnier and his lens design team. The Sonnar 1.5/50 is an impressive lens but it's a 1930s design from long before the use of computers so Zeiss really needed to update their lens designs to compete.


A new fairy tale.

Schering AG (the owner of Voigtlaender since 1925) sold Voigtlaender to the Carl Zeiss Foundation in 1956 which resulted that Voigtlaender became a part of Zeiss Ikon AG/W. Germany thereafter.


Hardly a fairy tale, more a matter of which source is correct. I took the year 1953 from here:

http://www.lakiere.info/Voigtlander_eng.htm

Quote:
In 1953 the Zeiss Foundation purchases Voigtländer und Sohne from the Schering Drug Company.
An important fact is that the Zeiss Foundation demanded that Voigtländer MADE MONEY, but they had to do so from their own resources, and Voigtländer lacked funds to invest in a lot of their ideas.
That huge hole in the bank-balance, the Contarex, started to tip Zeiss-Ikon into the red by 1956, and the ultimate fate was assured by 1959.
It is just a shame that the Zeiss Foundation insisted that Voigtländer be joined into the disaster, though, to be fair, the primary interest of the Zeiss Foundation in Voigtländer was acquiring their lens designers and their electronic shutter technology.
In the end, the Icarex and the Contaflex 126 were the sole contributions of Voigtländer to the Zeiss-Ikon line-up.


PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The page is inconsistent.

On top of the same page the correct information:

"1956 : De Carl Zeiss Stiftung buys Voigtlaender AG from Schering"

So the story from the bottom of the page seems to be weird and not really plausible.
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