Using a 38mm Biogon / Lamegon design lens

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

Why did I expect such kind of answer. That attitude "I have the right to...", happens way to often.... neglecting and disrespecting the efforts someone had to make to present some findings here. Be happy and be patient, it may eventually come, solely at my discretion, like it or not. Or do your own "lens research", nobody stops you...talking about "attitude".

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

Ian, there is no secret.
Klaus let you know enough for you to use a little initiative and find out by yourself:
Google: Biogon 4.5/38 (surprising initiative, eh? Wink

)
You'll find a plentiful examples of Hasselblad lenses all derived from the famous Bertele lens designed in the 50s.
You will also find links to articles by Marco Cavina that explain both the long road from the Goerz Hypergon to Bertele's 4.5/38 Biogon:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Hypergon_Topogon_Biogon_Hologon/00_pag.htm
and the story of the Hasselblad 4.5/38 Biogon itself:
http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/Zeiss_Biogon_38mm_4,5/00_pag.htm
Note that Klaus did not tell me a single word about any of that. The above are all information that I found by myself simply googling "Biogon 4.5/38"
Now I have no idea if the lens Klaus is handling is one of the Hasselblad versions, or if it's a prototype, or some unknown derivative,
but it makes little difference.
It's true that the gift of knowledge is noble, but people should also practice in finding the information themselves,
when they are openly available like in this case with a simple web query.
Otherwise if there is no effort there is no improvement and no merit, and it's better to earn some information with a little personal effort
than always getting the dinner ready cooked and served by somebody else. Wink

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Well, I have already googled Biogon and read about it's application on Hasselblads, but I'm still none the wiser. I am the last person to fail to do my own research, I spend an inordinate amount of time doing research and am always happy to share any info I find, to be reticent to share just doesn't make sense to me at all. For me, ignorance is the root of all evil and to educate and communicate info is key to fostering greater understanding and mutual respect in our modern multi-cultural world. Not trying to start an argument, just a little baffled by the 'it's a secret' approach.

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

Well, I fully agree with Orio. The internet has miseducated so many into some "tube fed" mentality, where "all is free and effortless - let another one do the work, I just google for it".

But enough about that lament and back to that famous Bertele lens design, I was able to find in a lens made by Zeiss Jena (not Hasselblad) - more about it later after I finished my studies about it.

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

mounted into some focusing helicoid

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

That looks strange. Cine lens? Surveillance camera lens?

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

Microreproduction lens (for microfilm), highest resolution of about 260lpm (in theory).
Covers full format, distortion less than 5 microns over the entire field.

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

My Wollensak Apochromatic Raptar is also optimised for close-range work but it also works great at infinity. This is something LF photographers have known for a long time and they have used the Apo Raptars extensively.

I don't have the article to hand but when I was researching the Raptar I read that Dialyte-types like the Raptar and Artar were mostly optimised for close-ranges but in some later series liek the red-dot Artars, they compromised and tweaked the design to give good infinity performance as well.

What about this CZJ lens makes it obviously a Biogon design?

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

GrahamNR17 · Expire: 2012-09-06

One day I hope to have your foresight when unearthing such a lens. I would have ignored it Embarassed

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

I have "ignored it" too for years, but then I got triggered by some papers I ran across while doing "lens research". It helps a lot to read "such stuff" Graham Wink

Phenix jc · Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 398 Location: France

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

Some do work amazingly well, as has been shown here already!

Phenix jc · Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 398 Location: France

Orio · Expire: 2012-12-04

The photos posted by Patrick taken with a Nikkor enlarger lens were quite amazing.

Excalibur · Expire: 2014-04-21

erm that reminds me to order a 39mm to 42mm adapter for my enlarging lenses...so cheap from Hong Kong £1.26 with free delivery.

Phenix jc · Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 398 Location: France

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

Enlarger lenses can be very good at infinity, I have a massive Docter Optics lens from a photo printing machine that is wonderful at infinity.

Phenix jc · Joined: 19 Dec 2009 Posts: 398 Location: France

iangreenhalgh1 · Expire: 2014-01-07

It's not very practical due to the weight and size but it does work very well. One day I will find a big enough tripod mount ring and it will become much more useable. Handheld it's a recipe for sore arms and a bad back!

danfromm · Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 595

Its hard to be certain, but I'm not convinced that Klaus' lens, nice though it is, conforms to any of the three examples in Bertele's US Patent 2,721,499. The patent's f/4.5 example is embodied in the 38/4.5 Biogon that was mounted in, mainly, Compur shutters for the wide angle Hasselblad and in barrel and a variety of outlandish shutters for aerial cameras. The glasses in all of these lenses are the same, only the mountings vary. Some of the 38/4.5 Biogons that USAF used were made in the US appear to have been made by a variety of makers including Goerz and Viewlex, although the late Charlie Barringer liked to assert that they were all made by Zeiss and rebadged to get around US procurement regulations.

Sometime in the '90s(? I could be wrong about when), after demand from air forces had gone away and the only cameras that used 38/4.5 Biogons were the wide angle Hasselblad and the Alpa 12, the 38/4.5 Biogon was recomputed to use modern glasses that conformed to German environmental regulations. For all practical purposes, all 38/4.5 Biogons are, subject to manufacturing variations, identical. I've had 20 of them, all with focal length measured and engraved on the lens barrels by the camera manufacturer. They ranged from 35.3 mm to 35.8 mm.

I have a 38/4.5 Biogon in AGI F-135 mount in front of me. Its hard to be sure, but the front and rear glasses seem narrower, relative to the length of the barrel, than those of Klaus' lens. I just looked at the CZ datasheet for the 38/4.5 Biogon mounted for Hasselblad (http://applications.zeiss.com/C12578620052CA69/0/CE6C8FC96B67BBAFC125786A00312B2B/$file/biogon4-5_38mm_104117_e.pdf ), didn't see much in it in the way of dimensions.

Ian, I have another 38/4.5 Biogon in Copal #0 that I shoot it my little Century Graphic. It isn't at all bad at near distances. The closest I've tried has been around 25 cm.

The 40/5.6 S-Biogon doesn't conform to any of the examples in US Patent 2,721,499. It was sold as a fixed aperture repro lens and there seems to be no way to put the glasses in shutter. The problem is that the barrel is a stepped tube, with the bits of glass, some cemented, held in place with retaining rings. There are no cells as we usually thing of them to screw into a shutter.

Towards the end CZJ made a variety of wide angle lenses with trade names Lamegon and Super Lamegon. All of these were at least as good as the equivalent CZ (BRD) Biogon, some were better.

About enlarging lenses. Process lenses, are typically very slow although Apo-Gerogons are, IIRC, f/5.6, and are typically relatively narrow angle. Some types hold their corrections well at all distances, others don't. These beasts are not often used in photographic enlarging. Enlarging lenses are typically faster than process lenses -- ain't no f/2.8 process lenses -- and are used for projection printing. Some have been used in process cameras, but this isn't common.

Whether enlarging lenses are good at distance has been discussed forever. The best answer is, some are, most aren't. I haven't yet found one I'd use as a taking lens at distance but that doesn't mean there are none. To give an example of a lens that I think Klaus has, the 4"/5.6 Enlarging Pro Raptar is superb at its intended working distances. Mine is distinctly poor at infinity. How's yours, Klaus?

Cheers,

Dan

kds315* · Expire: 2021-03-09

You hit the nail Dan, that lens design is a copy (or variation) of the Biogon which CZJ named LAMEGON (but since no-one except few people knows that, I used BIOGON to denote it, as the difference is minimal). It was made as a micro documentation lens for microfilm, so demanded very high resolution and a very flat field, so they used the Lamegon design with an reduced image angle. Total error over the total image area is fractions of microns only. I found a reference, but haven't gotten the full paper yet about those lenses and hope to find more about it in there.

The 4/40mm Biogon is indeed a great lens for sure, I know someone who has adapter it to his enlarger and gets great results, but as a taking lens, it is rather useless for normal cameras due to the short back focal length. I have several sitting around (incl. center filters) here.

Yes, I have that enlarging Raptar, but wasn't impressed much with it.