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Unknown vintage large format
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:09 pm    Post subject: Unknown vintage large format Reply with quote
I have a really nice old wooden large format thats takes 16x12cm glas plates.
But unfortunately the brand plate have come of and I have no info of this camera in turmes of name and how old it is.

The lens on it is a Doppel Plasmat 21cm f/4 D.R.P Dr.Rudolph. from Hugo Meyer & Co – Görlitz
Serial nr: 463949

The list of Görlitz serial number I have found only went back to the 1930s and thay began with 5....
So I guess the lens is from somthing like the 1920s, 1910 maybe.

Someone recognize the camera or know more about the lens?








I guess it was here the name plate where screwed on.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Its a lovely piece indeed.

I don't know the maker of the camera, but the design with a rigid front standard was very common and made by a large number of manufacturers from the late 19th century until the 1920's, and I know for certain that Burke & James of Chicago at least was making this design as late as the 1940's.

It was mainly intended as a portrait camera, which explains the limited movements. This was compensated by simplicity and the ability to easily fold up into a compact box.

I expect yours is German, but it could really be from almost anywhere. Were there any Swedish makers ? I would check that possibility.

The lens is not really an indicator of the camera maker, as there were many more camera makers than lens/shutter makers. Anyone could have added it later also. The lens is by Meyer of course, and I suspect a very early example of the Plasmat, which was introduced in 1922. Rudolph was the designer who licensed the design to Meyer. The Compur shutter was almost standard for fine German lenses in those days. The Plasmat would have been a good choice for a portrait camera. I'm not sure what a Doppel-Plasmat is though.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nopp no luck there Sad
Many thanks for your info.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Friend of mine an antique expert I will ask him. If you not get reply within 2 days ask me in pm.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
I know for certain that Burke & James of Chicago at least was making this design as late as the 1940's.


And the Russians were making the FKD wooden camera until relatively recently - perhaps as late as the 70s /80s. They pop up frequently on Eastern European auction sites. There's a great similarity with this one, but I'm fairly sure this isn't one of them.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matias_e/7166387859/in/set-72157630819056778
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matias_e/7165733532/
There are quite a few similarities, but it was a common design and I read the FKD was a copy of a German camera - this might be one of the originals.

I'm intrigued by that shutter - I have a similar sized Compur compound shutter, but in much worse condition - that came from Russia, likely from one of those cameras I mention. Oddly, there's no threading on it to mount a lens cell front or back.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I should have said Compound, both the Compur and the Compound were by Deckel.
The Compound came first, but both were made in parallel until quite late, as the Compound shutters were apparently favored for the larger sizes. The Compound stayed in the dial-set style though, even when the Compurs went to the rim-set style.

They are very similar in mechanics except for the speed regulation mechanism in the Compound was pneumatic.
Both the dial-set types are quite easy to open and fix but the mechanism in both needs to be carefully lubricated, just a little in just the right spots. There must be no oil where it can reach the blades, the pneumatic cylinder, and in many of them, the aperture blades are non-metallic, and they should be kept dry also.

I have an extremely large Compound -

http://forum.mflenses.com/zeiss-biotessar-16-5cm-2-8-lens-porn-t6055,highlight,%2Bbiotessar.html


PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's a lovely and interesting camera, but, to my eyes, the lettering around the front of the lens looks a lot more modern than is being suggested.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Farside wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
I know for certain that Burke & James of Chicago at least was making this design as late as the 1940's.


And the Russians were making the FKD wooden camera until relatively recently - perhaps as late as the 70s /80s. They pop up frequently on Eastern European auction sites. There's a great similarity with this one, but I'm fairly sure this isn't one of them.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matias_e/7166387859/in/set-72157630819056778
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matias_e/7165733532/
There are quite a few similarities, but it was a common design and I read the FKD was a copy of a German camera - this might be one of the originals.

I'm intrigued by that shutter - I have a similar sized Compur compound shutter, but in much worse condition - that came from Russia, likely from one of those cameras I mention. Oddly, there's no threading on it to mount a lens cell front or back.


Looks like Farside is on the right track here. The lens may have switched at a later date


PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It seems that Meyer stopped using the Plasmat name, and possibly the Plasmat formula, at some point in the 1930's.
Camera Eccentric has a 1936 Meyer catalog with no Plasmats.
That may be because Dr. Rudolph set up a company named Plasmat.

Anyway, based on Meyer serial numbers posted online, the serial number on this Plasmat (46xxxx) indicates a date just prior to 1930 (starting 500xxx), so maybe 1929.

There is more accurate information for dating Deckel shutters. So the shutter serial number could also give a date. Shutters and lenses were not always made at the same time though.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is a German type wooden box camera, quiet possible made in Germany around 1900-1915.
Friend of mine (Wilhelm) have a same one, this is quiet a big thing, due hard to find any matched ones, where is all part looks same.
It has 13x18cm film size. Lens is not genuine , genuine lens is brass optic. Wilhelm's camera part of stereo twins, made for stereo camera, this fact increase value approx 25%. If you take of rare side you my see this thing what is marked on posted pictures with red circle, if there yours also made as stereo camera.


#1


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
This is a German type wooden box camera, quiet possible made in Germany around 1900-1915.
Friend of mine (Wilhelm) have a same one, this is quiet a big thing, due hard to find any matched ones, where is all part looks same.
It has 13x18cm film size. Lens is not genuine , genuine lens is brass optic. Wilhelm's camera part of stereo twins, made for stereo camera, this fact increase value approx 25%. If you take of rare side you my see this thing what is marked on posted pictures with red circle, if there yours also made as stereo camera.


Mine looks lite this:


It's a frame screwed over this little notch.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Same half part of twins I think . Rare bird, try to sell shutter lens and buy genuine brass lens to it. Nice piece in any room.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Farside wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
I know for certain that Burke & James of Chicago at least was making this design as late as the 1940's.


And the Russians were making the FKD wooden camera until relatively recently - perhaps as late as the 70s /80s. They pop up frequently on Eastern European auction sites. There's a great similarity with this one, but I'm fairly sure this isn't one of them.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matias_e/7166387859/in/set-72157630819056778
http://www.flickr.com/photos/matias_e/7165733532/
There are quite a few similarities, but it was a common design and I read the FKD was a copy of a German camera - this might be one of the originals.


I myself own an FKD 13x18 camera which was made ( if i remember it correctly ) in the 1975 and it has no similarities with the one in question here. Now, i know for a fact that russian wooden cameras did not have parts that where made of brass. Most of them had simple chromed steel finish. I can give you a 100 % that your camera is indeed not russian made.
At the moment there is a wooden camera that is being sold locally and it is a German, C.P. Goerz camera made in Berlin ( or so the seller says) to me it looks identical to your camera ( I`m not talking about it`s condition ofcourse Very Happy )


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Found this beauty on ebay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5x7-Tail-Board-Camera-w-T-Pickard-Shut-Beautiful-1880s-Antique-Film-Plate-/290766915842?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item43b30f0902#ht_11735wt_1397

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Its not a copy but not far from Very Happy
I even got the same worn out carrying bag.

Why must old camera brands be a whole sentence?
No way I can pronounce that.

Last edited by BKSPicture on Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Laughing okay try Finnish or my mother language Hungarian after all German will be easy Wink


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
Same half part of twins I think . Rare bird, try to sell shutter lens and buy genuine brass lens to it. Nice piece in any room.


Make the camera a ornament Shocked
Poor camera think of its feelings just sitting in a room and don't get used.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
These are too old to use, they have good place on tripod and show their beauty only. To use them more funny than useful. Friend of mine have many of them once we did think about to try at least one, but I think it will be not done ever, too much hassle.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Something about nameplates on old cameras -

Often the nameplate is for the camera store, not the manufacturer.
It was normal in those days for the stores to attach nameplates to cameras. I have even seen it on Zeiss and Voigtlander models from the 1920's.

The biggest problem with using this one is finding a film holder that fits. If you have no luck maybe you can adapt a modern 5x7 holder (probably have to trim the sides) and adjust the groundglass to match.

Film is a lesser problem. You can try photo paper, x-ray film, etc.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
Something about nameplates on old cameras -

Often the nameplate is for the camera store, not the manufacturer.
It was normal in those days for the stores to attach nameplates to cameras. I have even seen it on Zeiss and Voigtlander models from the 1920's.

The biggest problem with using this one is finding a film holder that fits. If you have no luck maybe you can adapt a modern 5x7 holder (probably have to trim the sides) and adjust the groundglass to match.

Film is a lesser problem. You can try photo paper, x-ray film, etc.
Attila wrote:
These are too old to use, they have good place on tripod and show their beauty only. To use them more funny than useful. Friend of mine have many of them once we did think about to try at least one, but I think it will be not done ever, too much hassle.


I got this camera with 3 filmholders and everything works great, no light leaks etc.
Here are some of them, all with paper negatives.







I have hade some problem to get the focus exact and its a little hit or miss for every shot.
One of the film holders are ment for sheet film but even this miss focus.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
yes works , #1 is especially nice. Still believe too much effort vs any other cameras.


PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
You got better results from paper negatives than I ever did !

#1 is very sharp with excellent contrast. Nice atmosphere in the last two. #3 should be in a fairy tale.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
They are very nice results for a paper negative, I'm surprised! Well done.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow! #1 and #2 are really very good. The best paper negs I've ever seen. Which paper did you use?
I love the large format look!

I always wanted to convert an overhead projector into a large format potrait camera, but never made it. What a shame


PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ForenSeil wrote:
Which paper did you use?


I have mostly used Ilford MGIV but I think I used a foma paper for these pictures.
Also found it better to overexpose the paper and then shorten the developing time if necessary.

The uneven development give a nice vintage feel to the picture.

Hers a more extream one taken with a Zeiss Ikon Donata .


Getting a bit uneven contrast but I would guess thats becouse its a varible paper.
Have a hole box full of really old darkroom paper which is not contrast varible paper, give them I try.


PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You also loose a lot of contrast by doing this short developing so that need to be adjusted for in the contact print or in the computer.
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