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SONY announced uncompressed RAW!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:13 am    Post subject: SONY announced uncompressed RAW! Reply with quote
Sony Announces Addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW Still Image Capture for New Cameras


"New α7S II to Feature Selectable Compressed and Uncompressed 14 Bit RAW at Launch; Free Firmware Updates Coming for Additional Models Beginning with α7R II

NEW YORK, Sept. 15, 2015 – Sony Electronics, a worldwide leader in digital imaging and the world’s largest image sensor manufacturer, has today announced user selectable Compressed and Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW image capture will be featured in the new α7S II once it arrives in stores this October.

Additionally, they have announced plans to add user selectable compressed or uncompressed 14-Bit RAW still image capture via firmware update to additional cameras beginning with the recently introduced α7R II full-frame mirrorless model.

“The voice of our α community remains the most important guiding force of our product development plans,” said Neal Manowitz, Deputy Vice President for Digital Imaging at Sony Electronics. “The addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW processing is a direct result of customer feedback. Widely requested by photo and video enthusiasts, we believe the choice of RAW processing types will further elevate the performance of these extraordinary cameras.”

The α7S II and α7R II are compatible with Sony’s growing lineup of α -mount lenses, which now totals 64 different models including 13 native ‘FE’ full frame lenses. By early 2016, Sony will add an additional 8 new lenses to its FE full frame lineup, bringing the FE total to 21 lenses and the overall α -mount assortment to over 70 different models.

A variety of exclusive stories and exciting new content shot with the new α7S II and a7R II cameras plus other Sony α products can be found at www.alphauniverse.com, Sony’s new community site built to educate, inspire and showcase all fans and customers of the Sony α brand.

(from dpreview.com)

Last edited by kds315* on Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
what is amazing to me is that sony ever had 'lossy' RAW in the first place. imo, its either RAW as we all understand it or it is not. so the way i woukd phrase it is: 'now sony will have RAW'.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In the real world I expect this will make very little difference at all.

I own and use Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax, Samsung and Panasonic digicams as well as Sony and have never had any reason not to be satisfied with the ony RAW and I only shoot RAW.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I`ve had some issues with banding, so this is good news indeed Whoo Turtle


PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What issues with banding?


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
I`ve had some issues with banding, so this is good news indeed


same here... it happend quite often on the A7 with some lenses and especially with underexposed shots. The A900/A850 don't have this problem since Sony used uncrompressed RAW on those cameras.

So yes... this are really good news!


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
same here. just another reason i sold my sony. 'lossy' RAW, what a joke!


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
What issues with banding?


Banding in gradients. If a lens vignettes against sky for instance.


PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2834066212/the-raw-and-the-cooked-pulling-apart-sony-raw-compression

It has been revealed by RAWDIGGER in detail once here, that's what dpreview has cited:
http://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/sony-craw-arw2-posterization-detection




(c) RAWDIGGER

Exactly what Lars has described...


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I am shocked to hear the earlier Sony Alphas have no raw output?!!! Do I misunderstand? No ability to adjust White Balance? Shocked that folks would have accepted that limit for so long.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have never seen that issue, so to read the a850 has uncompressed raw makes me see why. It's a shame they have used compression on the A7 series.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Well I am shocked to hear the earlier Sony Alphas have no raw output?!!! Do I misunderstand?

Yes you misunderstand. A7* all have raws, but they are compressed with a lossy algorithm so you lose information in certain cases which can occasionally be seen as various artifacts when you are editing the image.

So this is really good news. But only A7sII and A7rII have been confirmed to get the needed menu option to shoot uncompressed raws. Hopefully older bodies will received this option as well.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RnR wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Well I am shocked to hear the earlier Sony Alphas have no raw output?!!! Do I misunderstand?

Yes you misunderstand. A7* all have raws, but they are compressed with a lossy algorithm so you lose information in certain cases which can occasionally be seen as various artifacts when you are editing the image.

So this is really good news. But only A7sII and A7rII have been confirmed to get the needed menu option to shoot uncompressed raws. Hopefully older bodies will received this option as well.


Thanks for reply.

Raw, by definition, is uncompressed, or, compressed without any loss of information. According to my definition, the Sony's have not had any raw output until now.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
Well I am shocked to hear the earlier Sony Alphas have no raw output?!!! Do I misunderstand? No ability to adjust White Balance? Shocked that folks would have accepted that limit for so long.


A7 series cameras of course do write RAWs and WB can be adjusted in PP. Technical specialist say these RAWs are compressed and that this has draw backs e.g. in form of arrtifacts. If I wouldn't read that I wouldn't know, haven't noticed


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
RnR wrote:
visualopsins wrote:
Well I am shocked to hear the earlier Sony Alphas have no raw output?!!! Do I misunderstand?

Yes you misunderstand. A7* all have raws, but they are compressed with a lossy algorithm so you lose information in certain cases which can occasionally be seen as various artifacts when you are editing the image.

So this is really good news. But only A7sII and A7rII have been confirmed to get the needed menu option to shoot uncompressed raws. Hopefully older bodies will received this option as well.


Thanks for reply.

Raw, by definition, is uncompressed, or, compressed without any loss of information. According to my definition, the Sony's have not had any raw output until now.


Remember that any digital format emulating analog things are compressed by bitdepth Wink Even uncompressed RAW is compressed.


PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Funny discussion.

EVERY A/D-conversion is resulting in a loss of information. That's a matter of fact.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nordentro wrote:
Remember that any digital format emulating analog things are compressed by bitdepth Wink Even uncompressed RAW is compressed.


tb_a wrote:
EVERY A/D-conversion is resulting in a loss of information. That's a matter of fact.


Sure, but why introduce a software path that causes a greater loss of information? I'm sure Sony engineers had their reasons, but Nikon when they use Sony sensors don't feel the need to have lossy raws.


PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe to gain less heat from the CPU, faster response/ speed, more batterylife and smaller files?
It would be interesting to see if the camera is less responsive with uncompressed RAW if they update older models.
(For instance, heat in a chunky Nikon body DSLR will not be a huge challenge compared to mirrorless)


PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think they use cRAW to achieve more FPS in the past. It will take more processing power and more time writing to memory card if they don't compress the raw with lossy algorithm.


PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Interesting what dpreview says about RAW performance: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-7r-ii/6

and DXO which stated that they will NOT DO A RETEST based on the new uncompressed RAW:
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Sony-A7R-II-sensor-review-New-high-water-mark-in-sensor-dynamics/Sony-A7R-II-vs.-Nikon-D810-vs-Canon-EOS-5DS-Significant-improvement-in-DR-at-high-ISOs


PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Maybe to gain less heat from the CPU, faster response/ speed, more batterylife and smaller files?
It would be interesting to see if the camera is less responsive with uncompressed RAW if they update older models.
(For instance, heat in a chunky Nikon body DSLR will not be a huge challenge compared to mirrorless)


Given the A7rII has already been heavily cited for heat issues, I suspect performance could suffer.

I've also had problems with banding on the A7r and have noticed that the recovery of underexposed shots is problematic. I now tend to over-expose a bit, shifting the histogram to the right without blowing out highlights, more than I would tend to.

But as mentioned earlier, either it was RAW or it wasn't - this announcement makes me think it wasn't.

And pity help us all of the battery life gets worse.....


PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks like A7 II owners (including myself) can enjoy uncompressed RAW from Nov. 18! Wink
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-will-add-uncomrpessed-raw-on-the-a7ii-via-firmware-updated-coming-on-november-18/


PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I`m updating now! Whoo Turtle


PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sony had abandoned the uncompressed RAW format with the introduction of the SLT technology. There were excellent technical reasons justifying that decision. What Sony did not know was that people do crazy things with PP, like pushing an extremely under-exposed cRAW image by +6EV. Some influential photographer bloggers were responsible by flooding the Internet with sensationalistic articles exploiting the "flaws" of the Sony cRAW format. The subject gained such dimensions that Sony had no choice but to reintroduce the uncompressed RAW on the A7 cameras. In my point of view, the cRAW is perfectly good (the Sony engineers most probably think the same way), but Sony is a company that produces cameras to the market, so it must follow the trades rule that says: "the customer is always right".


PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
End users must be able to decide for themselves whether they want RAW or cRAW, not the engineers from Sony. You can still shoot cRAW after the update. Wink
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