View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
Kamerer
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 389 Location: Russia Moscow
|
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kamerer wrote:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html _________________
Sony NEX-3 + NEX C3
MC Helios-44M-4
VMC Vivitar 28-90/2.8-3.5 Ser1
Pentakta 2/30
My texts are translated by the electronic translator. Best regards, Sergey.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 2483
|
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
D1N0 wrote:
cbass wrote: |
I will let Russian lens/Helios experts correct me if I am wrong because I am just speculating here.
However, some of these lenses like the Helios 44-2 and other variants were produced in different plants and their production spanned decades. For example, the Helios 44-2 was made from the 1970s or slightly before that and then to like 1983 or slightly after and during that production they also made 44M variants. Why would they make both lenses if the later lenses were improvements to the optical formula or coatings? If they did make improvements to coatings or glass or optical formula then why would they not use them across the models?
I looked at the two Helios 44-2 lenses that I have and the coating is very similar but different. One reflects a orange hue and the other a deep purple and orange. I also see the same thing in an ebay listing of 44M-4's.I stole this photo and put it in my flicker account so when the ebay listening ends and expires people can still see it.
They are all 44m-4's. Produced in various plants probably at various times. Only one is labeled MC. I see one with a orange looking coating. One with a red coating and two which I am unable to determine. Ebay listing here while available:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Helios-44m-4-EXC-58mm-f2-Russian-Bokeh-portrait-Lens-DSLR-M42-Mount-Canon-Old/132904601908?hash=item1ef1bb4934:g:iY4AAOSwXtNaeaWy
Personally even if the model number is the same I don't think they used the same coatings or the same glass as they were produced over time. Therefore, I don't think you can generalize performance based on the model alone. |
two KMZ one Valdai. One with no visible factory mark. The first two digits of the serial number are the year of production. Later models are progressively sharper (in theory) but towards the fall of the USSR QC got progressively worse, so sample variation started to increase. I also think the best copies went to the west. That's why we see much more complaints about copy variation from former USSR countries. I think all this fretting about versions is much ado about nothing. I compared a 44-2 44m and 44-m6 and hardly saw any discernable differences. _________________ pentaxian |
|
Back to top |
|
|
aidaho
Joined: 29 Apr 2018 Posts: 456 Location: Ukraine
|
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
aidaho wrote:
Kamerer wrote: |
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html |
It is not as simple as that:
On the right is a member of the rare second iteration of a 44M-X series.
Internally it is very different from the well-known specimen on the left. _________________ https://www.flickr.com/photos/curry-hexagon/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cbass
Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 436
|
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 4:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
cbass wrote:
Kamerer wrote: |
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html |
I don't think it's that simple.
Quote: |
Helios-44 - 35/14 lines / mm
Helios-44-2 - 38/20 lines / mm
Helios-44-7 - 36/17 lines / mm
Helios-44M-4 - 38/19 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-4 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44K-4 - 42/21 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-5 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-6 - 45/25 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-7 - 50/30 lines / mm
|
Based on those numbers the 44M-6 should be up there, but you don't see that when it's put up against a Helios 44-3. The Helios 44-3 isn't listed there but it came after the helios 44-2 and thus I imagine the Helios 44M-6 should be able to out resolve it. But it doesn't. At least not in this test.
https://natalispalette.jimdofree.com/new-and-old-camera-lenses-by-yuri-stangrit/comparisons-and-reviews/helios-44-3-58mm-f2-0-mc-vs-helios-44m-6-58mm-f2-0-mc/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Alex TG
Joined: 13 Oct 2019 Posts: 221 Location: Ukraine
|
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Alex TG wrote:
cbass wrote: |
The Helios 44-3 isn't listed there but it came after the helios 44-2 and thus I imagine the Helios 44M-6 should be able to out resolve it. |
44-3 and 44M-6 were introduced at about the same time (around 1990) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
papasito
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 Posts: 1658
|
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
papasito wrote:
cbass wrote: |
Kamerer wrote: |
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html |
I don't think it's that simple.
Quote: |
Helios-44 - 35/14 lines / mm
Helios-44-2 - 38/20 lines / mm
Helios-44-7 - 36/17 lines / mm
Helios-44M-4 - 38/19 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-4 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44K-4 - 42/21 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-5 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-6 - 45/25 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-7 - 50/30 lines / mm
|
Based on those numbers the 44M-6 should be up there, but you don't see that when it's put up against a Helios 44-3. The Helios 44-3 isn't listed there but it came after the helios 44-2 and thus I imagine the Helios 44M-6 should be able to out resolve it. But it doesn't. At least not in this test.
https://natalispalette.jimdofree.com/new-and-old-camera-lenses-by-yuri-stangrit/comparisons-and-reviews/helios-44-3-58mm-f2-0-mc-vs-helios-44m-6-58mm-f2-0-mc/ |
Looking at the test, seems that the Helios 44-3 compete with the M-7 not with the M-6 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kamerer
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 389 Location: Russia Moscow
|
Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kamerer wrote:
papasito wrote: |
cbass wrote: |
Kamerer wrote: |
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html |
I don't think it's that simple.
Quote: |
Helios-44 - 35/14 lines / mm
Helios-44-2 - 38/20 lines / mm
Helios-44-7 - 36/17 lines / mm
Helios-44M-4 - 38/19 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-4 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44K-4 - 42/21 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-5 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-6 - 45/25 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-7 - 50/30 lines / mm
|
Based on those numbers the 44M-6 should be up there, but you don't see that when it's put up against a Helios 44-3. The Helios 44-3 isn't listed there but it came after the helios 44-2 and thus I imagine the Helios 44M-6 should be able to out resolve it. But it doesn't. At least not in this test.
https://natalispalette.jimdofree.com/new-and-old-camera-lenses-by-yuri-stangrit/comparisons-and-reviews/helios-44-3-58mm-f2-0-mc-vs-helios-44m-6-58mm-f2-0-mc/ |
Looking at the test, seems that the Helios 44-3 compete with the M-7 not with the M-6 |
44-3 = MC 44M-4 and MC 44M-5
41/20 _________________
Sony NEX-3 + NEX C3
MC Helios-44M-4
VMC Vivitar 28-90/2.8-3.5 Ser1
Pentakta 2/30
My texts are translated by the electronic translator. Best regards, Sergey.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kamerer
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 389 Location: Russia Moscow
|
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kamerer wrote:
MC 44-M4 =63U$....
https://www.avito.ru/moskva/fototehnika/zenit_et_gelios_1900345258
MC Helios-44-M6 with body Zenit ~20U$ _________________
Sony NEX-3 + NEX C3
MC Helios-44M-4
VMC Vivitar 28-90/2.8-3.5 Ser1
Pentakta 2/30
My texts are translated by the electronic translator. Best regards, Sergey.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
papasito
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 Posts: 1658
|
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
papasito wrote:
Kamerer wrote: |
papasito wrote: |
cbass wrote: |
Kamerer wrote: |
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/helios-44.html |
I don't think it's that simple.
Quote: |
Helios-44 - 35/14 lines / mm
Helios-44-2 - 38/20 lines / mm
Helios-44-7 - 36/17 lines / mm
Helios-44M-4 - 38/19 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-4 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44K-4 - 42/21 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-5 - 41/20 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-6 - 45/25 lines / mm
MC Helios-44M-7 - 50/30 lines / mm
|
Based on those numbers the 44M-6 should be up there, but you don't see that when it's put up against a Helios 44-3. The Helios 44-3 isn't listed there but it came after the helios 44-2 and thus I imagine the Helios 44M-6 should be able to out resolve it. But it doesn't. At least not in this test.
https://natalispalette.jimdofree.com/new-and-old-camera-lenses-by-yuri-stangrit/comparisons-and-reviews/helios-44-3-58mm-f2-0-mc-vs-helios-44m-6-58mm-f2-0-mc/ |
Looking at the test, seems that the Helios 44-3 compete with the M-7 not with the M-6 |
44-3 = MC 44M-4 and MC 44M-5
41/20 |
Thank you, very much.
So I have to understand that the M-6 is sharper than the 44'3. Am I wrong? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kamerer
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 389 Location: Russia Moscow
|
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kamerer wrote:
papasito wrote: |
8 ) Helios-44 - 35/14 lines / mm
7) Helios-44-7 - 36/17 lines / mm
6) Helios-44M-4 - 38/19 lines / mm
5) Helios-44-2 - 38/20 lines / mm
4) MC Helios-44M-4 - 41/20 lines / mm
4) MC Helios-44M-5 - 41/20 lines / mm
4) MC Helios 44-3 - 41/20 lines / mm
3) MC Helios-44K-4 - 42/21 lines / mm
2) MC Helios-44M-6 - 45/25 lines / mm
1) MC Helios-44M-7 - 50/30 lines / mm
|
It is list Helios-44 with resolution lines. _________________
Sony NEX-3 + NEX C3
MC Helios-44M-4
VMC Vivitar 28-90/2.8-3.5 Ser1
Pentakta 2/30
My texts are translated by the electronic translator. Best regards, Sergey.
Last edited by Kamerer on Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
papasito
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 Posts: 1658
|
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
papasito wrote:
Kamerer wrote: |
papasito wrote: |
8 ) Helios-44 - 35/14 lines / mm
7) Helios-44-7 - 36/17 lines / mm
6) Helios-44M-4 - 38/19 lines / mm
5) Helios-44-2 - 38/20 lines / mm
4) MC Helios-44M-4 - 41/20 lines / mm
4) MC Helios-44M-5 - 41/20 lines / mm
4) Helios 44-3 - 41/20 lines / mm
3) MC Helios-44K-4 - 42/21 lines / mm
2) MC Helios-44M-6 - 45/25 lines / mm
1) MC Helios-44M-7 - 50/30 lines / mm
|
It is list Helios-44 with resolution lines. |
Thank you, Kamerer |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cbass
Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 436
|
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
cbass wrote:
I still think you shouldn't put too much importance on the version. Here is another test with 44-3 vs 44m-7 where they performed pretty similar. There are links to comparison pictures in that thread.
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/294334-little-test-helios-44-3-vs-44m-7-st-55-1-8-vs-44m-7-vs-smc-50-1-7-a.html#post3241106
I don't think the 44-3 is some magical undiscovered performer. I think it comes down to coatings which changed over time. Manufacturing tolerances or changes in glass or formula if they ever occured in production which has more to do with the time period the lens was produced. All helios are remarkly similar optically. Buy one cheap. Buy one in good condition. Be happy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kamerer
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 389 Location: Russia Moscow
|
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kamerer wrote:
...And buy one Helios-103 ) 50mm/1.8 and 55/28line for digital body without mirror. _________________
Sony NEX-3 + NEX C3
MC Helios-44M-4
VMC Vivitar 28-90/2.8-3.5 Ser1
Pentakta 2/30
My texts are translated by the electronic translator. Best regards, Sergey.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
papasito
Joined: 09 Jan 2015 Posts: 1658
|
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
papasito wrote:
Thank you cbass |
|
Back to top |
|
|
cbass
Joined: 27 Jul 2019 Posts: 436
|
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
cbass wrote:
Kamerer wrote: |
...And buy one Helios-103 ) 50mm/1.8 and 55/28line for digital body without mirror. |
I already have a Zenitar 50 1.7. Is the Helios 103 still worth considering? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Kamerer
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 389 Location: Russia Moscow
|
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Kamerer wrote:
cbass wrote: |
Kamerer wrote: |
...And buy one Helios-103 ) 50mm/1.8 and 55/28line for digital body without mirror. |
I already have a Zenitar 50 1.7. Is the Helios 103 still worth considering? |
Yes, Zenitar 50/1.7 (Ultron) = 43/24 lines
Helios 103 (Biotar?) = 55/28 lines
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/lenses/zenitar-1-7-50-lens.gif
5 group from 6 lenses
http://lens-club.ru/lenses/item/c_1297.html#
4 group from 6 lenses _________________
Sony NEX-3 + NEX C3
MC Helios-44M-4
VMC Vivitar 28-90/2.8-3.5 Ser1
Pentakta 2/30
My texts are translated by the electronic translator. Best regards, Sergey.
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
Oldhand
Joined: 01 Apr 2013 Posts: 6006 Location: Mid North Coast NSW - Australia
|
Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
Oldhand wrote:
cbass wrote: |
Kamerer wrote: |
...And buy one Helios-103 ) 50mm/1.8 and 55/28line for digital body without mirror. |
I already have a Zenitar 50 1.7. Is the Helios 103 still worth considering? |
The Helios 103 is one of the most marvellous little gems around, and still so cheap.
It wasn't so long ago that they were selling for $10. Prices have risen, but they are still less than a quarter of the price of the Zenitar, which is a wonderful lens in its own right.
A truly brilliant little optic
Tom |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|