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taunusreiter
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 127
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 Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:36 pm Post subject: Another historical dive: Takumar 85/1.8 founded in 1940 |
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taunusreiter wrote:
Anyone knows Paul Schäfter as a lens designer?
(He was engineer at Hugo Meyer, very well reputated optical company in Germany before WWII - made the first f/1.5 lens for the LEICA - which had the bad luck beeing located very close to the Polnish border in Görlitz, and never got back to old reputation in later DDR history)
Anyone knows this diagram?
Here the full patent writing:http://www.taunusreiter.de/cameras/DRP_719677A.pdf. I doubt an American patent exists: Even before America participated in the war they froze all German patents. Later, when the Allied had won the war all German prewar patents were declared free to use - including this one. And this inventor nearly got forgotten.
You may know, I'm not digging for "Nazi patents" but working on Ernostar/ Komura stuff for my historical camera website... 
Nice holidays to all of you
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Last edited by taunusreiter on Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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estudleon
Joined: 15 May 2008
Posts: 3754
Location: Argentina
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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estudleon wrote:
Very interesant question. Thanks for sharing. Yours is a great site.
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Konica 2,8/100
CZJ: 4/20, 2,4/35, 1,8/50 aus jena, 3,5/135MC, Pentacon 1,8/50
Pentax S-M-C-1,4/50
Helios 44-3
Mamiya 2,8/135
Misc. : jupiter 9
Stuff used:
A) SRL
Alpa 10 D - kern macro Switar 1,9/50 -black, Kilffit apochromat 2/100.
Asahi pentax spotmatic super takumar 1,4/50
Contaflex super B tessar 2,8/50 Pro-tessar 115
Leica R3 electronic summicron 2/50 elmarit 2,8/35
Konica Autoreflex 3 (2 black and chrome one), TC, T4. 2,8/24, 3,5/28 not MC and MC, 1,8/40, 1,4/50, 1,7/50 MC and not MC, 1,8/85, 3,2/135, 3,5/135, 4/200
Minolta XG9 2,8/35, 2/45, 3,5/135
Nikkormat FTn 1,4/50, 2,8/135
Fujica ST 801, 605, 705n. 3,5/19, 1,4/50, 1,8/55, 4/85, 3,5/135.
Praktica MTL 5 and a lot of M42 lenses.
Voigtlander. Bessamatic m, bessamatix de luxe, bessamatic cs, ultramatic and ultramatic cs.
Skoparex 3,5/35, skopagon 2/40, skopar 2,8/50, skopar X 2,8/50, super lanthar (out of catalogue) 2,8/50, dinarex 3,4/90, dinarex 4,8/100, super dinarex 4/135, super dinarex 4/200, zoomar 2,8/36-83, portrait lens 0, 1 and 2. Curtagon 4/28 and 2,8/35
Canon AV1, 1,8/50
Rolleiflex SL35 and SL35 E. 2,8/35 angulon, 2,8/35 distagon, 1,4/55 rolleinar, 1,8/50 planar, 4/135 tessar, 2,8/135 rolleinar, x2 rollei, M42 to rollei adap.
Etc.
RF
Yashica Minister III
Voightlander Vito, vitomatic I, Vito C, etc.
Leica M. M2, M3 (d.s.) and M4. Schenider 3,4/21, 2/35 summaron 2,8/35 (with eyes). Summicron 2/35 (8 elements with eyes), 2/35 chrome, 2/35 black, 1,4/35 pre asph and aspheric - old -, 2/40 summicron, 2,8/50 elmar, 2/50 7 elements, 2/50 DR, 2/50 - minolta version, 1,4/50 summilux 1966 version, 1,4/75 summilux, 2/90 large version, 2/90 reduced version of 1987, 2,8/90 elmarit large version, 4/135 elmar. |
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poilu
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 10472
Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
thanks for share all those interesting infos |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
taunusreiter: many thanks, your website is one of the best informational sources all over the web
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(almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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patrickh
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 8551
Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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patrickh wrote:
Agree with the sentiment that your website is the kind of place that makes the web so much fun and so informative
patrickh
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DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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Spotmatic
Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 4045
Location: Netherlands
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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Spotmatic wrote:
Thanks for the research! Nice to see how Asahi got their ideas from German designs (like virtually all other lens makers).
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Peter - Moderator
Pentax K-5 + Pentax 645 + Canon 5D + Bessa RF 10,5cm Heliar, and a 'little' bag full of MF lenses. The lens list is * here *.
My fast 80s: Asahi-Kogaku Takumar 83mm f/1.9 - Super-Takumar 85mm f/1.9 - FA 77mm f/1.8 Limited - Cyclop 85/1.5 (Helios-40 innards) - Komura 80mm f/1.8 - Meyer Görlitz Primoplan 7,5cm 1:1.9 - Carl Zeiss Jena 80mm f/1.8 Pancolar - Canon 85mm f/1.8 S.S.C. - Canon 85mm f/1.2 S.S.C. Aspherical |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008
Posts: 2495
Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
btw. Erhard Glatzel was also inspired by this lens design, his (later) patent is available here...
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=ftg2AAAAEBAJ&dq=3994576
...and if I understand it well, it mentions examples like:
50/2.9
55/2.7
60/2.3
70/1.6
50/3.5
50/2.9
45/2.9
45/2.4
60/2.5
70/1.4
70/1.2
135/1.3
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(almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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taunusreiter
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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taunusreiter wrote:
These were more prototypes, few of them were build in series. But it's an important Zeiss patent. Examples were the 85/2.8 (Contax C/Y) and the Rollei 35 Sonnar (40/2.8 )
Actually the Ernostar revival at Zeiss started 10 years earlier, with the 4-element 135/2.8 for the Contarex (and later: Rolleiflex SL35)
http://www.taunusreiter.de/cameras/DE1268404A_Konschak.pdf
Prof. Glatzel wasn't often involved in that child calculations. He was the man for the real complicated stuff and higher maths (wideangle designs)
Even the 85/1.4 was developed out of the Ernostar prototyping (US3948584)
That's why I said Zeiss could have made it 10 years earlier
cheers
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 2167
Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Another historical dive: Takumar 85/1.8 founded in 1940 |
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scsambrook wrote:
| taunusreiter wrote: |
You may know, I'm not digging for "Nazi patents" but working on Ernostar/ Komura stuff for my historical camera website... |
Political sensitivities put aside, I think scrutiny of optical patents filed in the National Socialist era in Germany would be an interesting exercise. It would potentially be of great interest to historians of both business and technology. Some teasing questions include whether research increased and, if so, in what ways, and what practical benefits resulted - either prior to 1945 or subsequently. After all, technology transfer was a long established characteristic in the optical industries prior to WWII, and from I can see continued into the 1950s and 60s, even if without the blessing of the parent design companies.
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Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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taunusreiter
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 127
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Another historical dive: Takumar 85/1.8 founded in 1940 |
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taunusreiter wrote:
| scsambrook wrote: |
| Political sensitivities put aside, I think scrutiny of optical patents filed in the National Socialist era in Germany would be an interesting exercise. It would potentially be of great interest to historians of both business and technology. |
This is done in some areas, architecture or Breitspurbahn. The result was, that this ideas needed 100,000s of slaves to realize the nonsense, need the stones of every single quarry in the continent, or destroy cities without the help of the allied bombs. And probably it was the main reason for Hitler to fight his war against the world.
Good that we talk about optics and cameras here
I assume you know about a brilliant young engineer named Nüchterlein and his invention of TTL metering?
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Canon_RF_2e.html#TTL
The poor guy probably died in the last few days of the war. No one knows where and how... 
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scsambrook
Joined: 29 Mar 2009
Posts: 2167
Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Another historical dive: Takumar 85/1.8 founded in 1940 |
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scsambrook wrote:
| taunusreiter wrote: |
Good that we talk about optics and cameras here
I assume you know about a brilliant young engineer named Nüchterlein and his invention of TTL metering?
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Canon_RF_2e.html#TTL
The poor guy probably died in the last few days of the war. No one knows where and how... |
Yes, it's good that we (usually!) only talk about cameras and lenses here. As for Nuechterlein I know of him only through your fascinating website. That's an interesting patent - I wonder if there might be a "parallel patent" somewhere relating to more sensitive cells for measuring light ... he surely would have known that something different to ordinary selenium cells would be needed. Most intriguing!
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Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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bob955i
Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Posts: 2495
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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bob955i wrote:
As a bit of an Exaktaphile, I have heard of Karl Nüchterlein.
It's truly amazing how far reaching his SLR design and basic ergonomics has been and I wonder if he could have foreseen where it would lead. |
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ramiller500
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 124
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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ramiller500 wrote:
Pre-WW2, Dr. Emanuel Goldberg, the founding head of of Zeiss Ikon, innovated many amazing optical technologies. His involvement in some was forgotten or covered up after he was forced to leave Germany.
See http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldberg.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Goldberg
http://www.amazon.com/Emanuel-Goldberg-His-Knowledge-Machine/dp/0313313326
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Sincerely,
Bob Miller |
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