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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 2946
Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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 Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 2:29 pm Post subject: The ultimate pancake lens? |
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jamaeolus wrote:
I have a copy of the legendary Olympus OM 40mm f2 thought by many to be the ultimate pancake lens but now there is this thing. Could it be adapted to Sony E-mount? 
https://phys.org/news/2024-05-scientists-thinnest-lens-earth-enabled.html
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DConvert
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 912
Location: Essex UK
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: The ultimate pancake lens? |
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DConvert wrote:
Having had a very quick look, a focal length of 1mm isn't going to be practical on e-mount, & the lens is going to be extremely fragile.
But similar technology might be used as elements in future lenses.
The design is highly wavelength dependant making me think there might be considerable chromatic aberration in this version. I suspect it's main use would be in something like laser communications rather than everyday imaging.
FWIW the article has some technical errors I can spot from personal experience, zone plates are diffractive elements, but Fresnel lenses are definitely refractive, the two are quite different! |
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 2946
Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
Yeah. I was joking. For the time being this technique will be used by physics researchers.
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 363
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| Posted: Fri May 31, 2024 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
industar 69
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for sale: smc super takumar 135/2.5 M42, Yash ML 50/1/4, Yash DS-M 50/1.4 M42, Yash ML 21/3.5, Yash auto 50/2.8, Mir-1 37/2.5 (new!), Jupiter-9 M42+M39(new!), Jupiter-11 135, FD 100/2.8, Konishiroku Konica 100/2.8, Fujinon T 100/2.8(M42/XF), Minolta PF 58/1.4 + 1.7, Meyer O.G. 100/2.8, Meyer O.G. 50/1.8, Meyer O.G. Lydith 30/3.5, Meyer O.G. Domi 50/2.8 ... and many more |
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kypfer
Joined: 27 Sep 2017
Posts: 521
Location: Jersey C.I.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 7:06 am Post subject: |
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kypfer wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
| industar 69 |
Another vote for the Industar-69!
Unfortunately very prone to flare, so a lens-hood (even a de-glassed filter) can help, and backlit subjects might need to be avoided, unless that's the effect you're after 
... or there's always a pinhole in a lens-cap |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 1563
Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 8:34 am Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
Konica Hexanon AR 40mm f1.8
https://youtu.be/H4h4OrGFWR8?si=4uAEobNKJ27QKHAf
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Crazy Leica Fox
Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
I hoped this would be a discussion on the best lens to photograph pancakes  |
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D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012
Posts: 2525
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| Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2024 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
pentax smc fa 43mm f/1.9 limited. AF but can be used manually
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 363
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 11:50 am Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
Well, what is the definition of a 'pancake lens' in these modern times? Let's check the possible criteria;
- If a vintage manual focus pancake lens is mounted on a modern mirrorless body with an adapter, it is no longer considered a true pancake lens.
- The differences between 28mm, 40mm, and any other existing focal lengths are significant, especially when considering the three main sizes of sensors.
- it remains that for what it is, non-native 'pancake' lenses should ideally only be M39 mounts, to keep the 'pancake-ish' distance and size.
All this means: vintage pancake MF lens on mirrorless body ... not enough choises, with questionable image quality, if that is necessary.
Going modern pancakes would be a suitable better option, considering the versatility.
Sans associated costs.
However, I have to note that I am completely unaware of the possibilities of new Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras regarding this topic.
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for sale: smc super takumar 135/2.5 M42, Yash ML 50/1/4, Yash DS-M 50/1.4 M42, Yash ML 21/3.5, Yash auto 50/2.8, Mir-1 37/2.5 (new!), Jupiter-9 M42+M39(new!), Jupiter-11 135, FD 100/2.8, Konishiroku Konica 100/2.8, Fujinon T 100/2.8(M42/XF), Minolta PF 58/1.4 + 1.7, Meyer O.G. 100/2.8, Meyer O.G. 50/1.8, Meyer O.G. Lydith 30/3.5, Meyer O.G. Domi 50/2.8 ... and many more |
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D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012
Posts: 2525
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
Mirrorless having very short FFD's has sort of defeated the vintage pancake lens concept since you need to adapt it. But still it is a very compact lens.
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Ernst Dinkla
Joined: 30 Nov 2016
Posts: 387
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ernst Dinkla wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
Well, what is the definition of a 'pancake lens' in these modern times? Let's check the possible criteria;
- If a vintage manual focus pancake lens is mounted on a modern mirrorless body with an adapter, it is no longer considered a true pancake lens.
- The differences between 28mm, 40mm, and any other existing focal lengths are significant, especially when considering the three main sizes of sensors.
- it remains that for what it is, non-native 'pancake' lenses should ideally only be M39 mounts, to keep the 'pancake-ish' distance and size.
All this means: vintage pancake MF lens on mirrorless body ... not enough choises, with questionable image quality, if that is necessary.
Going modern pancakes would be a suitable better option, considering the versatility.
Sans associated costs.
However, I have to note that I am completely unaware of the possibilities of new Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras regarding this topic. |
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63963895
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 363
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
Well Her Dinkla,
thats not a pancake lens, it's more like poffer lens (the dutch micro pancake)
how easy it to adapt this lens ? same as minox lens ?
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for sale: smc super takumar 135/2.5 M42, Yash ML 50/1/4, Yash DS-M 50/1.4 M42, Yash ML 21/3.5, Yash auto 50/2.8, Mir-1 37/2.5 (new!), Jupiter-9 M42+M39(new!), Jupiter-11 135, FD 100/2.8, Konishiroku Konica 100/2.8, Fujinon T 100/2.8(M42/XF), Minolta PF 58/1.4 + 1.7, Meyer O.G. 100/2.8, Meyer O.G. 50/1.8, Meyer O.G. Lydith 30/3.5, Meyer O.G. Domi 50/2.8 ... and many more |
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 363
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
Well, what is the definition of a 'pancake lens' in these modern times? Let's check the possible criteria;
- it remains that for what it is, non-native 'pancake' lenses should ideally only be M39 mounts, to keep the 'pancake-ish' distance and size.
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and leica mount too, missed that for a moment
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for sale: smc super takumar 135/2.5 M42, Yash ML 50/1/4, Yash DS-M 50/1.4 M42, Yash ML 21/3.5, Yash auto 50/2.8, Mir-1 37/2.5 (new!), Jupiter-9 M42+M39(new!), Jupiter-11 135, FD 100/2.8, Konishiroku Konica 100/2.8, Fujinon T 100/2.8(M42/XF), Minolta PF 58/1.4 + 1.7, Meyer O.G. 100/2.8, Meyer O.G. 50/1.8, Meyer O.G. Lydith 30/3.5, Meyer O.G. Domi 50/2.8 ... and many more |
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Crazy Leica Fox
Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2024 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.
Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter. |
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DConvert
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 912
Location: Essex UK
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| Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 7:28 am Post subject: |
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DConvert wrote:
I would say the Olympus body cap lenses for MFT must be close tot the ultimate pancakes... |
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Ernst Dinkla
Joined: 30 Nov 2016
Posts: 387
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| Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2024 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Ernst Dinkla wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
Well Her Dinkla,
thats not a pancake lens, it's more like poffer lens (the dutch micro pancake)
how easy it to adapt this lens ? same as minox lens ? |
Poffertje, meneer Alex,
Possibly, never done that conversion. Got the Ricoh FF1 as a present so decided to transform it to something usable for me. Also one of the first steps into 3D print design and 3D printing when I made the first adaptation that fitted in an Sony FE<>M42 adapter. Shown here a lighter and more slick design with a reverse ring FE mount.
Without hood the lens extends 26mm from the camera mount flange. Triangular Ninja shaped aperture from 3.5 to 8.0, becoming sort of triangular rounded between 8.0 to 16. Expected a worse IQ.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4182092
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jamaeolus
Joined: 19 Mar 2014
Posts: 2946
Location: Eugene
Expire: 2015-08-20
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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jamaeolus wrote:
Very interesting where the discussion has gone!
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titrisol70
Joined: 14 Dec 2021
Posts: 166
Location: State of Denial
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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titrisol70 wrote:
| D1N0 wrote: |
| pentax smc fa 43mm f/1.9 limited. AF but can be used manually |
IN that case the 40/2.8 which is only a few mm thick
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Pentaxian and proud
Cameras: Spotmatic, I and F, Pentax ME, MESuper, ME-F, P30t, K-x, MZ-5, Mz-7 // K100D, Kx, K5IIs, K3-iii
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Lenses:
Super Takumar 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/28, 1:1.8/55, 1:1.4/50 (7-element), 1:3.5/135
Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17
Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/55, 1:1.4/50, 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135,, 1:4/200, 1:4.5/500
Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50
Lots of M, A, F, FA, DA series lenses |
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caspert79
Joined: 31 Oct 2010
Posts: 3010
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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caspert79 wrote:
When I use a vintage pancake on my Sony body it’s suddenly not a pancake anymore, because of the quite thick adapter. For this reason, I have no pancake myself. There are some compact standard lenses I quite like though, such as the Pentax-M 50mm f/1.7 and Minolta MD 50mm f/2. |
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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
Posts: 509
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
| LittleAlex wrote: |
Konica Hexanon AR 40mm f1.8
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I mean, sure - I love the Hexanon AR 40 mm f/1.8 as much as the next guy and I've really been impressed by its performance quite recently. But when it comes to "pancake-ness" in terms of small size, but big impact, I have to give a shoutout to my Steinheil Anastigmat 45 mm f/2.8:
It is 39 mm in diameter (meaning it is smaller than an AAA-battery and the whole lens will almost fit inside of a M39/LTM mount) and weighs in at 44 grams.
Here's what it does:
 Blossom pal by simple.joy, on Flickr
 A place to hang out by simple.joy, on Flickr
 Bubblic viewing by simple.joy, on Flickr
 Pollen' my weight! by simple.joy, on Flickr
 Pink keeping out of trouble? by simple.joy, on Flickr
 Exblossom! by simple.joy, on Flickr
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Manual lens enthusiast
https://www.flickr.com/photos/simple_joy/ |
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 363
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
anastigmat is a triplet,
so if u need a small size not-so-pancake-isch (less pancake-ness!)
there are smena8 lenses adapted to m39
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for sale: smc super takumar 135/2.5 M42, Yash ML 50/1/4, Yash DS-M 50/1.4 M42, Yash ML 21/3.5, Yash auto 50/2.8, Mir-1 37/2.5 (new!), Jupiter-9 M42+M39(new!), Jupiter-11 135, FD 100/2.8, Konishiroku Konica 100/2.8, Fujinon T 100/2.8(M42/XF), Minolta PF 58/1.4 + 1.7, Meyer O.G. 100/2.8, Meyer O.G. 50/1.8, Meyer O.G. Lydith 30/3.5, Meyer O.G. Domi 50/2.8 ... and many more |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 10810
Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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| Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2024 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Monocles lens: Designing a single element lens
https://www.alternativephotography.com/monocles-single-element-lens/
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Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 363
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:10 am Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
| simple.joy wrote: |
But when it comes to "pancake-ness" in terms of small size, but big impact, I have to give a shoutout to my Steinheil Anastigmat 45 mm f/2.8:
It is 39 mm in diameter (meaning it is smaller than an AAA-battery and the whole lens will almost fit inside of a M39/LTM mount) and weighs in at 44 grams.
Here's what it does:
......
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Hi, have you a pic of the lens on/in an adapter, it needs less than a mm for m39, right ?
and have you use some extensions for those macros?
very nice separation, pics could be a great editorials.
btw have you tried to shoot outside n normal everyday situation?
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for sale: smc super takumar 135/2.5 M42, Yash ML 50/1/4, Yash DS-M 50/1.4 M42, Yash ML 21/3.5, Yash auto 50/2.8, Mir-1 37/2.5 (new!), Jupiter-9 M42+M39(new!), Jupiter-11 135, FD 100/2.8, Konishiroku Konica 100/2.8, Fujinon T 100/2.8(M42/XF), Minolta PF 58/1.4 + 1.7, Meyer O.G. 100/2.8, Meyer O.G. 50/1.8, Meyer O.G. Lydith 30/3.5, Meyer O.G. Domi 50/2.8 ... and many more |
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ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars
Joined: 03 Nov 2021
Posts: 231
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:36 am Post subject: |
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ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
I don´t like screw mounts, but M39 makes a nice compact package on any mirrorless camera, having just 28.8mm register distance. That´s a given. How about the Voigtlander NOKTON Classic 40 mm f/1,4 SC VM for Leica M-mount? The system has a flange focal distance of just 27.95mm. I´ve never seen this lens adapted to a mirrorless camera, but as I imagine, this is some very pancakey combination and goes around in the background of my mind since quite some time.
Next best, leaving out the more elusive and expensive Contax G or Hasselblad XPan, Konica AR has only 40.5mm flange focal distance, being probably the smallest widely available reflex system in terms of register distance. But even the excellent and tiny Hexanon 40/1.8 pancake looks adapted on a mirrorless like any other 50mm on a classic analog body.
Olympus, though known for their both performant and miniscule lenses, has a register distance of 46mm thus adds a lengthy adapter to an otherwise compact lens. Anyway, the 40mm Zuiko pancake is certainly something very desireable for a Zuikonian like I am. Congratulations, jamaeolus
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 1563
Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:41 am Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
| ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote: |
| How about the Voigtlander NOKTON Classic 40 mm f/1,4 SC VM for Leica M-mount? The system has a flange focal distance of just 27.95mm. I´ve never seen this lens adapted to a mirrorless camera, but as I imagine, this is some very pancakey combination and goes around in the background of my mind since quite some time. |
Yes, you are completely right. It makes the perfect pancake lens for travel purposes on my Sony a7s!
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