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ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars
Joined: 03 Nov 2021
Posts: 254
Location: Austria
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 Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: |
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ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
| LittleAlex wrote: |
| ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote: |
| How about the Voigtlander NOKTON Classic 40 mm f/1,4 SC VM for Leica M-mount? The system has a flange focal distance of just 27.95mm. I´ve never seen this lens adapted to a mirrorless camera, but as I imagine, this is some very pancakey combination and goes around in the background of my mind since quite some time. |
Yes, you are completely right. It makes the perfect pancake lens for travel purposes on my Sony a7s! |
Nice, I assumed someone might have had the same trail of thought already - can you please post a picture of it attached to the Sony?
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
| ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote: |
I don´t like screw mounts, but M39 makes a nice compact package on any mirrorless camera, having just 28.8mm register distance. That´s a given. How about the Voigtlander NOKTON Classic 40 mm f/1,4 SC VM for Leica M-mount? The system has a flange focal distance of just 27.95mm. I´ve never seen this lens adapted to a mirrorless camera, but as I imagine, this is some very pancakey combination and goes around in the background of my mind since quite some time.
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in that case;
- Leitz 40 / 2.0
- Minolta M-rokkor 28/2.8 , 40/2.0
- div V'landers 35/1.4 , 15/4.5, 21/4, 28/2.8 ... and goes on
not fully Pancake-ish but very suitable as Pancake-y and much smaller than AR 40/1,8 and its lack of Pancake-ness and lotsa Pancake-less
But you cant beat the price of AR 40/1.8 $ / per mm of Pancake-ish-ness,
vs all other wannabes wonderful pancake-less and their $ / per mm
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008
Posts: 1756
Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
| ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote: |
| can you please post a picture of it attached to the Sony? |
Oh yes, I can of course!
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 11061
Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
List of older pancake lenses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancake_lens#List_of_older_pancake_lenses
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☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars
Joined: 03 Nov 2021
Posts: 254
Location: Austria
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
| LittleAlex wrote: |
| ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote: |
| can you please post a picture of it attached to the Sony? |
Oh yes, I can of course! |
Classy and compact, very nice. Thank you!
| alex_d wrote: |
| But you cant beat the price of AR 40/1.8 $ / per mm of Pancake-ish-ness, vs all other wannabes wonderful pancake-less and their $ / per mm |
I totally agree. It´s a steal, and it makes great pictures. My usual choice if lightweight and small is of the essence.
#1
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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
Hi, have you a pic of the lens on/in an adapter, it needs less than a mm for m39, right ?
and have you use some extensions for those macros?
very nice separation, pics could be a great editorials.
btw have you tried to shoot outside n normal everyday situation? |
I just made one where it's on my camera, but it's kinda impossible to see due to the (highly unusual) mounting solution...
But I'll try to describe what's going on. Okay, here goes:
I have a tiny clamp made by RAF Camera (M26 to 24.6 mm - made for adapting the Scanner Nikkor 7-ED lens or something like that) and I screw this one into a M26 to M42 adapter which I reverse-mount to my (custom) recessed lens-board (in order to get closer to the sensor). Why the complicated setup? Well, this was a taking lens, most likely used on a Bolsey Jubilee or some similar camera (https://historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium2/pm.cgi?action=app_display&app=datasheet&app_id=2713&) where it was of course used in a shutter. Thus my (incomplete) lens still has some of the elements fromt he shutter mechanism (for example a tiny lever, which is in a really unfortunate position for acessing the rear thread).
Is it worth it to adapt a lens in such a way? I doubt it, at least for most people. But I still enjoy it, and it already has a special place in my heart as one of the tiniest lenses I can use for regular photography:
 Q-tip purple by simple.joy, on Flickr
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
@simple.joy
nice, thanx !
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kathala
Joined: 13 May 2022
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:09 am Post subject: |
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kathala wrote:
uh, pancakes! I'm in!
someone might be interested in this little, potentially complete list of pancake lenses?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGbXkrE5GqlD6Hoq8bFN9FEOZf37k0LrK6tN2moOuno
maybe you even know of lenses not yet on the list?
that Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 renders gloriously! but the setup looks more black forest cake than pancake 
That said, I admit to being spoilt. I was involved in the development of a tiny lens called the Experimental Optics 35mm f/2.7, which at the time was the smallest 35mm/FF pancake lens in the world, and I ended up spending a year taking pictures with virtually nothing else. (in case you want to see some, kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the (not a plug, the campaign is long over))
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My Art and Books: ChristianSchnalzger.de
My Exploration of Panoramic Photographic Storytelling:
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:15 am Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
| kathala wrote: |
| kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the |
is this a triplet ?
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
Posts: 11061
Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
| kathala wrote: |
uh, pancakes! I'm in!
someone might be interested in this little, potentially complete list of pancake lenses?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGbXkrE5GqlD6Hoq8bFN9FEOZf37k0LrK6tN2moOuno
maybe you even know of lenses not yet on the list?
that Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 renders gloriously! but the setup looks more black forest cake than pancake
That said, I admit to being spoilt. I was involved in the development of a tiny lens called the Experimental Optics 35mm f/2.7, which at the time was the smallest 35mm/FF pancake lens in the world, and I ended up spending a year taking pictures with virtually nothing else. (in case you want to see some, kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the (not a plug, the campaign is long over)) |
  some tiny lenses there! The modern ones look interesting! There are so many!
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☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
This Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 is also in m39 Paxette but with a longer register whats makes it interesting for macro (that im never doing actually) ONLY.
I dont think that this lens would be a std carry - everyday lens, maybe a spec character if it has some ..
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simple.joy
Joined: 30 May 2022
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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simple.joy wrote:
| kathala wrote: |
that Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 renders gloriously! but the setup looks more black forest cake than pancake |
😅 There‘s some truth to that! However, if you would be mounting it on a helicoid it would perhaps be slightly bigger and have a bit more weight than your experimental optics, while still featuring a variable aperture. It won‘t match it in sharpness or coverage though…
My complicated setup though allows for:
a.) tilt/shift
b.) macro up to 2X or more
c.) reversed setup
As I‘m always stressing, none of those ‚features' will be of much use to most people, but I still love to have them.
Guess I‘ll never be a real pancake-man, even though I love ssome of them… 😉
BTW. that Kickstarter lens seems to have fantastic bokeh. Great work on that and I can imagine you having lots of fun with that. I love using my Xenon 35 mm f/2 wide open or close to it and think this might feel similar + way better coverage.
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Ernst Dinkla
Joined: 30 Nov 2016
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Ernst Dinkla wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
| kathala wrote: |
| kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the |
is this a triplet ? |
Same question I had in mind. With its related short barrel mechanical vignetting is usually no issue. It will cover FF if light only is considered, IQ in the corners is another matter. Yesterday I put a salvaged Ektanar 28mm 3.5 "all glass" in an M42 cap, probably closer to 2.8 without its narrow shutter hole. Light enough up to the corners, smearing too! Fitted within a short helicoid the concoction measures, set at infinity, about 16,5 mm beyond the A7RII. On a Leica M without helicoid it would be less than 7mm. Don't think this will score in crowd funding if properly described.
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kathala
Joined: 13 May 2022
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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kathala wrote:
The EO is a 4-element. Covers FF nicely; haven't been able to test it with anything larger. Corner sharpness is lower than centre, as one would imagine, but still very usable imho. And yes, I love that bokeh.
That said, there are surprisingly many great bokeh pancakes. The 35 2 Fuji is one, but utter collector's item today. The 35 2 Leica Summicron version IV is legendary, and version I, as remade now by light lens labs, ditto, as well as the faster Canon M39s. Etc.
Your Xenon 35 2 should cover full frame as well?
Btw, the flange distance for that Steinheil should be 44mm: Steinheil made a lot of lenses for Braun Paxette SLR cameras. They used M39, but with longer flange distance.
As a macro lens, I love your bellows setup (and it looks cool!)
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Photography Reference Tables:
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My Exploration of Panoramic Photographic Storytelling:
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
| Quote: |
| The 35 2 Fuji is one, |
can you provide more info about this one ..?
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Crazy Leica Fox
Joined: 29 Apr 2017
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
| Crazy Leica Fox wrote: |
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.
Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter. |
Here's a pair of photos linked from Sony Alpha Rumors of the pancake I was talking about:
These show the Heliar extended and collapsed on a Sony mirrorless. Note that the lens has its hood on in these, so the pancake is even more compact when naked! |
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Ernst Dinkla
Joined: 30 Nov 2016
Posts: 410
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:42 am Post subject: |
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Ernst Dinkla wrote:
| Crazy Leica Fox wrote: |
| Crazy Leica Fox wrote: |
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.
Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter. |
Here's a pair of photos linked from Sony Alpha Rumors of the pancake I was talking about:
These show the Heliar extended and collapsed on a Sony mirrorless. Note that the lens has its hood on in these, so the pancake is even more compact when naked! |
I see it is actually a Heliar optical design with an aspheric center element. I guess some will use it with an AF adapter as well instead of the VC one.
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DConvert
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 921
Location: Essex UK
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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DConvert wrote:
| Crazy Leica Fox wrote: |
| Crazy Leica Fox wrote: |
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.
Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter. |
Here's a pair of photos linked from Sony Alpha Rumors of the pancake I was talking about:
These show the Heliar extended and collapsed on a Sony mirrorless. Note that the lens has its hood on in these, so the pancake is even more compact when naked! |
That looks quite similar to several of the retractable rangefinder industar lenses I have (eg https://www.analog.cafe/r/50mm-f35-industar-10-xulq). Unless mounted on an extension tube (as I often do with mine) the lens is unusable when retracted, being unable to focus at all (They would perhaps focus on Zenit M39 SLRs but the lens will probably foul the mirror).
Nice lenses but not true pancakes IMO. |
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pepperberry farm
Joined: 02 Jan 2017
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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pepperberry farm wrote:
Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f2 - delicious little lens.... |
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serkol
Joined: 26 Aug 2012
Posts: 926
Location: Belarus
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| Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:06 am Post subject: |
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serkol wrote:
LTM mount Leitz Elmar 35/3.5, FED 28/4.5 realy pancaces!
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paulhofseth
Joined: 05 Mar 2011
Posts: 577
Location: Norway
Expire: 2018-06-28
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:40 am Post subject: |
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paulhofseth wrote:
The Oude Delft Minor is quite small.
p. |
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kathala
Joined: 13 May 2022
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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kathala wrote:
| alex_d wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The 35 2 Fuji is one, |
can you provide more info about this one ..? |
well, not really
The engraving is "Fuji Photo Film Co. Fujinon 1:2 f=3.5cm"
It's a 7/5 from 1954, the fastest 35mm lens at the time of release (Nikon and Canon 3.5cm f/1.8 were 1956). It was made at least into the early 196os.
Here are some samples (no relation):
https://www3-plala-or-jp.translate.goog/tokuzo/fuji_fujinon_f2_35mm.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
_________________
Photography Reference Tables:
drive.google.com/drive/folders/1aJ5F8XM6t5AK4bydthcDoiwhsh5CUx3N
My Art and Books: ChristianSchnalzger.de
My Exploration of Panoramic Photographic Storytelling:
flickr.com/photos/hach_und_ueberhaupt/
The better you look, the more you see (B. E. Ellis) |
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D1N0
Joined: 07 Aug 2012
Posts: 2537
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| Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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D1N0 wrote:
Maybe not the ultimate but definitely pancake is the SMC Pentax-m 40mm 1:2.8
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alex_d
Joined: 19 Jan 2019
Posts: 424
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| Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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alex_d wrote:
Ok i know now that lens is it. Something reminds me on Nicca RF and that lens and I think that i was on the hunt.
thanx for clarification
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