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The ultimate pancake lens?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleAlex wrote:
ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
How about the Voigtlander NOKTON Classic 40 mm f/1,4 SC VM for Leica M-mount? The system has a flange focal distance of just 27.95mm. I´ve never seen this lens adapted to a mirrorless camera, but as I imagine, this is some very pancakey combination and goes around in the background of my mind since quite some time.


Yes, you are completely right. It makes the perfect pancake lens for travel purposes on my Sony a7s!


Nice, I assumed someone might have had the same trail of thought already - can you please post a picture of it attached to the Sony?


PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
I don´t like screw mounts, but M39 makes a nice compact package on any mirrorless camera, having just 28.8mm register distance. That´s a given. How about the Voigtlander NOKTON Classic 40 mm f/1,4 SC VM for Leica M-mount? The system has a flange focal distance of just 27.95mm. I´ve never seen this lens adapted to a mirrorless camera, but as I imagine, this is some very pancakey combination and goes around in the background of my mind since quite some time.


in that case;

- Leitz 40 / 2.0

- Minolta M-rokkor 28/2.8 , 40/2.0

- div V'landers 35/1.4 , 15/4.5, 21/4, 28/2.8 ... and goes on


not fully Pancake-ish but very suitable as Pancake-y and much smaller than AR 40/1,8 and its lack of Pancake-ness and lotsa Pancake-less


But you cant beat the price of AR 40/1.8 $ / per mm of Pancake-ish-ness,

vs all other wannabes wonderful pancake-less and their $ / per mm


PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
can you please post a picture of it attached to the Sony?


Oh yes, I can of course!



PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

List of older pancake lenses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancake_lens#List_of_older_pancake_lenses


PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LittleAlex wrote:
ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:
can you please post a picture of it attached to the Sony?


Oh yes, I can of course!


Classy and compact, very nice. Thank you!

alex_d wrote:
But you cant beat the price of AR 40/1.8 $ / per mm of Pancake-ish-ness, vs all other wannabes wonderful pancake-less and their $ / per mm


I totally agree. It´s a steal, and it makes great pictures. My usual choice if lightweight and small is of the essence.

#1


PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2024 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex_d wrote:


Hi, have you a pic of the lens on/in an adapter, it needs less than a mm for m39, right ?

and have you use some extensions for those macros?

very nice separation, pics could be a great editorials.

btw have you tried to shoot outside n normal everyday situation?


I just made one where it's on my camera, but it's kinda impossible to see due to the (highly unusual) mounting solution...




But I'll try to describe what's going on. Okay, here goes:

I have a tiny clamp made by RAF Camera (M26 to 24.6 mm - made for adapting the Scanner Nikkor 7-ED lens or something like that) and I screw this one into a M26 to M42 adapter which I reverse-mount to my (custom) recessed lens-board (in order to get closer to the sensor). Why the complicated setup? Well, this was a taking lens, most likely used on a Bolsey Jubilee or some similar camera (https://historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium2/pm.cgi?action=app_display&app=datasheet&app_id=2713&) where it was of course used in a shutter. Thus my (incomplete) lens still has some of the elements fromt he shutter mechanism (for example a tiny lever, which is in a really unfortunate position for acessing the rear thread).

Is it worth it to adapt a lens in such a way? I doubt it, at least for most people. But I still enjoy it, and it already has a special place in my heart as one of the tiniest lenses I can use for regular photography:

Q-tip purple by simple.joy, on Flickr


PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2024 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@simple.joy
nice, thanx !


PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

uh, pancakes! I'm in!

someone might be interested in this little, potentially complete list of pancake lenses?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGbXkrE5GqlD6Hoq8bFN9FEOZf37k0LrK6tN2moOuno
maybe you even know of lenses not yet on the list?

that Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 renders gloriously! but the setup looks more black forest cake than pancake Smile
That said, I admit to being spoilt. I was involved in the development of a tiny lens called the Experimental Optics 35mm f/2.7, which at the time was the smallest 35mm/FF pancake lens in the world, and I ended up spending a year taking pictures with virtually nothing else. (in case you want to see some, kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the (not a plug, the campaign is long over))


PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kathala wrote:
kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the


is this a triplet ?


PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kathala wrote:
uh, pancakes! I'm in!

someone might be interested in this little, potentially complete list of pancake lenses?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UGbXkrE5GqlD6Hoq8bFN9FEOZf37k0LrK6tN2moOuno
maybe you even know of lenses not yet on the list?

that Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 renders gloriously! but the setup looks more black forest cake than pancake Smile
That said, I admit to being spoilt. I was involved in the development of a tiny lens called the Experimental Optics 35mm f/2.7, which at the time was the smallest 35mm/FF pancake lens in the world, and I ended up spending a year taking pictures with virtually nothing else. (in case you want to see some, kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the (not a plug, the campaign is long over))


Like 1 Like 1 Thank you! some tiny lenses there! The modern ones look interesting! There are so many!


PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 is also in m39 Paxette but with a longer register whats makes it interesting for macro (that im never doing actually) ONLY.

I dont think that this lens would be a std carry - everyday lens, maybe a spec character if it has some ..


PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2024 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kathala wrote:


that Steinheil 45mm f/2.8 renders gloriously! but the setup looks more black forest cake than pancake Smile


😅 There‘s some truth to that! However, if you would be mounting it on a helicoid it would perhaps be slightly bigger and have a bit more weight than your experimental optics, while still featuring a variable aperture. It won‘t match it in sharpness or coverage though…

My complicated setup though allows for:

a.) tilt/shift
b.) macro up to 2X or more
c.) reversed setup

As I‘m always stressing, none of those ‚features' will be of much use to most people, but I still love to have them.

Guess I‘ll never be a real pancake-man, even though I love ssome of them… 😉

BTW. that Kickstarter lens seems to have fantastic bokeh. Great work on that and I can imagine you having lots of fun with that. I love using my Xenon 35 mm f/2 wide open or close to it and think this might feel similar + way better coverage.


PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2024 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex_d wrote:
kathala wrote:
kickstarter.com/projects/1745517054/35mm-f-27-the-smallest-fastest-pancake-lens-in-the


is this a triplet ?


Same question I had in mind. With its related short barrel mechanical vignetting is usually no issue. It will cover FF if light only is considered, IQ in the corners is another matter. Yesterday I put a salvaged Ektanar 28mm 3.5 "all glass" in an M42 cap, probably closer to 2.8 without its narrow shutter hole. Light enough up to the corners, smearing too! Fitted within a short helicoid the concoction measures, set at infinity, about 16,5 mm beyond the A7RII. On a Leica M without helicoid it would be less than 7mm. Don't think this will score in crowd funding if properly described.


PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The EO is a 4-element. Covers FF nicely; haven't been able to test it with anything larger. Corner sharpness is lower than centre, as one would imagine, but still very usable imho. And yes, I love that bokeh.

That said, there are surprisingly many great bokeh pancakes. The 35 2 Fuji is one, but utter collector's item today. The 35 2 Leica Summicron version IV is legendary, and version I, as remade now by light lens labs, ditto, as well as the faster Canon M39s. Etc.

Your Xenon 35 2 should cover full frame as well?

Btw, the flange distance for that Steinheil should be 44mm: Steinheil made a lot of lenses for Braun Paxette SLR cameras. They used M39, but with longer flange distance.
As a macro lens, I love your bellows setup (and it looks cool!)


PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The 35 2 Fuji is one,



can you provide more info about this one ..?


PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2024 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.

Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter.


Here's a pair of photos linked from Sony Alpha Rumors of the pancake I was talking about:



These show the Heliar extended and collapsed on a Sony mirrorless. Note that the lens has its hood on in these, so the pancake is even more compact when naked!


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.

Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter.


Here's a pair of photos linked from Sony Alpha Rumors of the pancake I was talking about:



These show the Heliar extended and collapsed on a Sony mirrorless. Note that the lens has its hood on in these, so the pancake is even more compact when naked!


I see it is actually a Heliar optical design with an aspheric center element. I guess some will use it with an AF adapter as well instead of the VC one.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
Crazy Leica Fox wrote:
My favorite pancake for mirrorless isn't vintage, but it's not made anymore; it requires an adapter, even though it's designed for mirrorless; and it's a pancake when collapsed, though not so much when in use. Confusing? Definitely.

Voigtlander Heliar 40mm/2.8 for Sony FE, the version without a helicoid that requires a close-focus M-to-E adapter.


Here's a pair of photos linked from Sony Alpha Rumors of the pancake I was talking about:



These show the Heliar extended and collapsed on a Sony mirrorless. Note that the lens has its hood on in these, so the pancake is even more compact when naked!


That looks quite similar to several of the retractable rangefinder industar lenses I have (eg https://www.analog.cafe/r/50mm-f35-industar-10-xulq). Unless mounted on an extension tube (as I often do with mine) the lens is unusable when retracted, being unable to focus at all (They would perhaps focus on Zenit M39 SLRs but the lens will probably foul the mirror).
Nice lenses but not true pancakes IMO.


PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voigtlander Ultron 40mm f2 - delicious little lens....


PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2024 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LTM mount Leitz Elmar 35/3.5, FED 28/4.5 realy pancaces!


PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Oude Delft Minor is quite small.

p.


PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

alex_d wrote:
Quote:
The 35 2 Fuji is one,



can you provide more info about this one ..?


well, not really
The engraving is "Fuji Photo Film Co. Fujinon 1:2 f=3.5cm"
It's a 7/5 from 1954, the fastest 35mm lens at the time of release (Nikon and Canon 3.5cm f/1.8 were 1956). It was made at least into the early 196os.
Here are some samples (no relation):
https://www3-plala-or-jp.translate.goog/tokuzo/fuji_fujinon_f2_35mm.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp


PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2024 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe not the ultimate but definitely pancake is the SMC Pentax-m 40mm 1:2.8


PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2024 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kathala wrote:
alex_d wrote:
Quote:
The 35 2 Fuji is one,



can you provide more info about this one ..?


well, not really
The engraving is "Fuji Photo Film Co. Fujinon 1:2 f=3.5cm"
It's a 7/5 from 1954, the fastest 35mm lens at the time of release (Nikon and Canon 3.5cm f/1.8 were 1956). It was made at least into the early 196os.
Here are some samples (no relation):
https://www3-plala-or-jp.translate.goog/tokuzo/fuji_fujinon_f2_35mm.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp


Ok i know now that lens is it. Something reminds me on Nicca RF and that lens and I think that i was on the hunt.

thanx for clarification