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Article on Tomioka and their industrial lenses
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 1:24 pm    Post subject: Article on Tomioka and their industrial lenses Reply with quote


As a couple of people here who were very kind to help me during my research on the topic, know, I've been writing an article on Tomioka - first and foremost their enlarging and industrial lenses - for quite some time. While a couple of things are still missing or incomplete, I wanted to share the first draft with you in order to let you know what I was able to gather so far.

There are actually two articles:

1.) THE TOMIOKA STORY
https://deltalenses.com/the-tomioka-story/

a little bit of background in terms of history of Tomioka as a company.

and


2.) TOMIOKA INDUSTRIAL LENSES
https://deltalenses.com/tomioka-industrial-lenses/

an overview of three notable lens families (EXXC minilab lenses, The Osawa Tominon enlarging lenses and the Polaroid MP4/5 macro and repro lenses) + a couple of other Tomioka made industrial lenses I found along the way.


A BIG THANK YOU to all of you here, who provided some very interesting and valuable information, feedback and sources. I've tried to credit everone I've included, but if you feel like I've missed something, if you want to be attributed differently or don't want to be included at all, please let me know and I'll try to correct it immediately. This whole topic has gotten way bigger than I had ever imagined, so please forgive me, if there are still some errors or missing pieces in there.

I'd love to hear what you think about the article, or some of the lenses, if you have some experience with any of them. And if you happen to know some good sources I'm missing, please let me know as well, so I can further refine this write-up!

Here are a couple of sample shots made with these lenses:

Way closer... to Spring by simple.joy, on Flickr

Don't worry, we're just playing ball here! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Bad leather front by simple.joy, on Flickr

Mandatory morning breathing by simple.joy, on Flickr

Bumping heads by simple.joy, on Flickr

Ballways online by simple.joy, on Flickr

Absence can be felt. by simple.joy, on Flickr

My macro swan song by simple.joy, on Flickr

Densely populated by simple.joy, on Flickr

Pretty or just pre-tea? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Silence of the lamps by simple.joy, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The ones for Polaroid are/were top notch
I got a 50 - 75 and 105mm years ago when the lab replaced the polaroid with digital
They are excellent for macro work on a bellows/helicoid


PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2024 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fantastic research AND pics!


PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2024 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Awesome work!

Very interesting read and good idea to have the pictures to put words into images!

I must say I'm a bit of a Tomioka fan myself with the Yashinon 5cm f/2 as an early favorite.

I've tried to dig out info on the Yashica Lynx 1000 lens mystery if you don't mind me posting it here.

The usual lens is supposed to be made by Tomioka and The Zunow is much more rare to find.

This is based on claims from a Japanese blog.


#1


#2


PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
titrisol70 wrote:
The ones for Polaroid are/were top notch
I got a 50 - 75 and 105mm years ago when the lab replaced the polaroid with digital
They are excellent for macro work on a bellows/helicoid


From my personal experience they do punch above their weight in their optimum magnification, but apart from that I found the lenses from the E36/E90 series significantly better. That being said, the Polaroid MP4/5 lenses seem to have lots of sample variation, so I can‘t be sure if I have good ones of the 50, 75 and 135. My 35 mm one stands out the most - really great tiny lens.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2024 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianSVP wrote:
Fantastic research AND pics!


Thank you very much!


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy, thanks for those glorious pictures! I understand, but was never touched by, the Tomioka love, but those colours, sharpness and smoothness are quite divine!
blotafton, thanks for the insight! So the YASHICA vs Yashica is the giveaway? Does that also apply to other Yashicas? Or did they settle for one purveyor?


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kathala wrote:
simple.joy, thanks for those glorious pictures! I understand, but was never touched by, the Tomioka love, but those colours, sharpness and smoothness are quite divine!
blotafton, thanks for the insight! So the YASHICA vs Yashica is the giveaway? Does that also apply to other Yashicas? Or did they settle for one purveyor?


The biggest clue is supposedly how the serial number is written. One is the typical Zunow style. I'll see if I can find the article and link it. The author also takes them apart and notices small differences. It was one other model if I remember correctly.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Having an "o" in a serial number doesn't really mean much. Takumar lenses from that period also were marked that way, as were Fujita lenses, and that's probably just scratching the surface. The author of that site even says their thinking is not backed by evidence. Their claim of the Yashinon 5.8cm F/1.7 likewise being a Zunow lens is also very unlikely, which they also admit.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://yashicasailorboy.com/2017/10/09/is-that-a-zunow-on-your-lynx-connections-yashica-and-zunow-do-you-have-one/

Here they take a look at the inside and the lenses are different, not just the styling of the text.

The question is why if both are Tomioka.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
blotafton wrote:
Awesome work!

Very interesting read and good idea to have the pictures to put words into images!

I must say I'm a bit of a Tomioka fan myself with the Yashinon 5cm f/2 as an early favorite.


Thank you so much - I'm happy know you think so!

Yes, indeed - the Yashinon 5 cm f/2 is indeed awesome...

I just love that rendering:

Blushinon by simple.joy, on Flickr

Ghostly Boo!keh by simple.joy, on Flickr

This was the hot stuff once… by simple.joy, on Flickr


blotafton wrote:

I've tried to dig out info on the Yashica Lynx 1000 lens mystery if you don't mind me posting it here.

The usual lens is supposed to be made by Tomioka and The Zunow is much more rare to find.

This is based on claims from a Japanese blog.

[/url]


https://yashicasailorboy.com/2017/10/09/is-that-a-zunow-on-your-lynx-connections-yashica-and-zunow-do-you-have-one/

Here they take a look at the inside and the lenses are different, not just the styling of the text.

The question is why if both are Tomioka.


Many thanks for sharing that! I've touched on Zunow very briefly, I think (under the video lenses) but even the little bit I've looked into it, revealed that there's a lot of uncertainty when it comes to that manufacturer. They apparently made lots of lenses for Yashica for video cameras. Tomioka made a couple as well, but not nearly the same amount. What if Zunow made more taking lenses than we know? It's certainly interesting looking at some serial numbers/labeling curiosities again with that in mind.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Very thorough and interesting read, thank you!


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
blotafton wrote:
https://yashicasailorboy.com/2017/10/09/is-that-a-zunow-on-your-lynx-connections-yashica-and-zunow-do-you-have-one/

Here they take a look at the inside and the lenses are different, not just the styling of the text.

The question is why if both are Tomioka.


There's no evidence given in that article, beyond them stating something to be so several times, and wanting it to be the case. It may or may not be a Tomioka lens, it may or may not be a Zunow lens. It may be some other lens maker. A minor difference in lens arrangement from one earlier version of a camera to another doesn't itself point to a different maker, or any particular maker. Lenses were being developed and changed very quickly in that period. Sometimes the optical arrangement was static while the mechanical arrangement or housing was altered. Other times some new type of glass became available and they decided to try it. Or a different contractor offered a cheaper, or better, alternative. It's okay to be enthusiastic about these things, but for a large number of claims made by various fans, the evidence given doesn't really match the claims made.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Haha, considering how many contortions people will go through to convince people certain lenses -are- Tomiokas, it's kinda funny to see people doing the same to convince people that a lens is not one!

Alun Thomas wrote:
blotafton wrote:
https://yashicasailorboy.com/2017/10/09/is-that-a-zunow-on-your-lynx-connections-yashica-and-zunow-do-you-have-one/

Here they take a look at the inside and the lenses are different, not just the styling of the text.

The question is why if both are Tomioka.


There's no evidence given in that article, beyond them stating something to be so several times, and wanting it to be the case. It may or may not be a Tomioka lens, it may or may not be a Zunow lens. It may be some other lens maker. A minor difference in lens arrangement from one earlier version of a camera to another doesn't itself point to a different maker, or any particular maker. Lenses were being developed and changed very quickly in that period. Sometimes the optical arrangement was static while the mechanical arrangement or housing was altered. Other times some new type of glass became available and they decided to try it. Or a different contractor offered a cheaper, or better, alternative. It's okay to be enthusiastic about these things, but for a large number of claims made by various fans, the evidence given doesn't really match the claims made.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
blotafton wrote:
Awesome work!

Very interesting read and good idea to have the pictures to put words into images!

I must say I'm a bit of a Tomioka fan myself with the Yashinon 5cm f/2 as an early favorite.


Thank you so much - I'm happy know you think so!

Yes, indeed - the Yashinon 5 cm f/2 is indeed awesome...

I just love that rendering:


blotafton wrote:

I've tried to dig out info on the Yashica Lynx 1000 lens mystery if you don't mind me posting it here.

The usual lens is supposed to be made by Tomioka and The Zunow is much more rare to find.

This is based on claims from a Japanese blog.

[/url]


https://yashicasailorboy.com/2017/10/09/is-that-a-zunow-on-your-lynx-connections-yashica-and-zunow-do-you-have-one/

Here they take a look at the inside and the lenses are different, not just the styling of the text.

The question is why if both are Tomioka.


Many thanks for sharing that! I've touched on Zunow very briefly, I think (under the video lenses) but even the little bit I've looked into it, revealed that there's a lot of uncertainty when it comes to that manufacturer. They apparently made lots of lenses for Yashica for video cameras. Tomioka made a couple as well, but not nearly the same amount. What if Zunow made more taking lenses than we know? It's certainly interesting looking at some serial numbers/labeling curiosities again with that in mind.


Beautiful examples!

Yes who knows? I do not find it far fetched that Japanese manufacturers might have done the same as the Germans. With multiple suppliers to the same camera system. But they were better at putting the original makers name on the lens. That makes it much easier for us!

I didn't know about the video cameras!


PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2024 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alun Thomas wrote:
blotafton wrote:
https://yashicasailorboy.com/2017/10/09/is-that-a-zunow-on-your-lynx-connections-yashica-and-zunow-do-you-have-one/

Here they take a look at the inside and the lenses are different, not just the styling of the text.

The question is why if both are Tomioka.


There's no evidence given in that article, beyond them stating something to be so several times, and wanting it to be the case. It may or may not be a Tomioka lens, it may or may not be a Zunow lens. It may be some other lens maker. A minor difference in lens arrangement from one earlier version of a camera to another doesn't itself point to a different maker, or any particular maker. Lenses were being developed and changed very quickly in that period. Sometimes the optical arrangement was static while the mechanical arrangement or housing was altered. Other times some new type of glass became available and they decided to try it. Or a different contractor offered a cheaper, or better, alternative. It's okay to be enthusiastic about these things, but for a large number of claims made by various fans, the evidence given doesn't really match the claims made.


I don't claim to know. It is just rumors for now. But I would like to know.

What is a fact is that Zunow made 4.5cm f/1.8 lenses for other cameras for example Auto Terra and Neoca.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianSVP wrote:
Haha, considering how many contortions people will go through to convince people certain lenses -are- Tomiokas, it's kinda funny to see people doing the same to convince people that a lens is not one!


It is funny, indeed! 😂 But to be fair... Tomioka's labeling of their lenses really doesn't help in the matter. And their complicated business dealings as well. I'd really love to know their relationship with Cosina.

What is this supposed to be?



No surprise there will be confusion...


PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:

It is funny, indeed! 😂 But to be fair... Tomioka's labeling of their lenses really doesn't help in the matter. And their complicated business dealings as well. I'd really love to know their relationship with Cosina.

What is this supposed to be?

...

No surprise there will be confusion...


At the end of 2010 i met four Japanese Sony guys at the Sony Switzerland headquarters near Zurich. Among them was the (then) head of optical design for Sony consumer lenses. They were surprised to see that I was surprised about the level of cooperation among different Japanese lens makers.

Back then, Sony "Zeiss" lenses (such as the ZA 2/24mm, ZA 1.4/85mm, the ZA 1.8/135mm, but also the 2.8/16-35 and 2.8/24-70 zooms) for Sony SLRs were made at a) Sony plants and b) at Cosina plants. Of course Zeiss Germany was involved too. So the Zeiss / Cosina / Tomioka (?) connection is well established.

Sony "G" lenses came from c) Minolta plants. And of course Tamron was in the game as well, producing a highly modified version of their 2.8/28-75 lens for Sony (different and sturdier / more expensive plastics used; different electronics).

It seems that Minolta in the mean time has established a good relationship with Nikon too. Nearly all the patents for fast Nikkor primes do involve Minolta too. Back around 2005 there was a rumour than Minolta had developed a series of fast high performanc primes for the upcoming "Minolta Dynax 9D" aka Alpha 900. Maybe they partly were realized as fast "Nikon" primes. Nikkor AF 1.4/24mm ED was one of those as far as I remember (same lens section as a Minolta patent), but I'm not completely sure.

S


PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kathala wrote:
simple.joy, thanks for those glorious pictures! I understand, but was never touched by, the Tomioka love, but those colours, sharpness and smoothness are quite divine!


Thank you very much - I'm really happy to hear that! I'm well aware that Tomioka is a double edged sword, but I feel like some of their industrial lenses are really great and well worth being saved from gathering dust in some shed or being thrown away.

Rumor has it… bokeh alone won‘t cut it! by simple.joy, on Flickr

A dead end, ant! And now? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Water mess by simple.joy, on Flickr

No screw-ups at launch by simple.joy, on Flickr

Drop the facade, you‘re green still! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Desperate attempts at capturing energy by simple.joy, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:


At the end of 2010 i met four Japanese Sony guys at the Sony Switzerland headquarters near Zurich. Among them was the (then) head of optical design for Sony consumer lenses. They were surprised to see that I was surprised about the level of cooperation among different Japanese lens makers.

Back then, Sony "Zeiss" lenses (such as the ZA 2/24mm, ZA 1.4/85mm, the ZA 1.8/135mm, but also the 2.8/16-35 and 2.8/24-70 zooms) for Sony SLRs were made at a) Sony plants and b) at Cosina plants. Of course Zeiss Germany was involved too. So the Zeiss / Cosina / Tomioka (?) connection is well established.

Sony "G" lenses came from c) Minolta plants. And of course Tamron was in the game as well, producing a highly modified version of their 2.8/28-75 lens for Sony (different and sturdier / more expensive plastics used; different electronics).

It seems that Minolta in the mean time has established a good relationship with Nikon too. Nearly all the patents for fast Nikkor primes do involve Minolta too. Back around 2005 there was a rumour than Minolta had developed a series of fast high performanc primes for the upcoming "Minolta Dynax 9D" aka Alpha 900. Maybe they partly were realized as fast "Nikon" primes. Nikkor AF 1.4/24mm ED was one of those as far as I remember (same lens section as a Minolta patent), but I'm not completely sure.

S


Thanks a lot for that insight, Stephan! Really fascinating to hear.

I knew of Tamron and Cosina being way more significant than anyone would imagine as manufacturers, but I wasn't aware of Minolta. Quite interesting that Nikon relies so much on that company. My experience with Minolta lenses is very limited in general, but all of those I've tried so far were very, very good and in most cases clearly punching above their weight, considering the (moderate) prices.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:



It seems that Minolta in the mean time has established a good relationship with Nikon too. Nearly all the patents for fast Nikkor primes do involve Minolta too. Back around 2005 there was a rumour than Minolta had developed a series of fast high performanc primes for the upcoming "Minolta Dynax 9D" aka Alpha 900. Maybe they partly were realized as fast "Nikon" primes. Nikkor AF 1.4/24mm ED was one of those as far as I remember (same lens section as a Minolta patent), but I'm not completely sure.

S



Would you be able to kindly give a source for this material?

I'm hoping that it is something that actually shows in the patents- a bit more than he said/she said/they said etc etc...

Given the co-operation on sensors between Sony and Nikon, certainly possible at that 2005 juncture date, but plausible, maybe?

-D.S.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man, these images are SO good. These are all the 75mm? Absolutely a lens I'm going to be on the lookout for.

simple.joy wrote:
kathala wrote:
simple.joy, thanks for those glorious pictures! I understand, but was never touched by, the Tomioka love, but those colours, sharpness and smoothness are quite divine!


Thank you very much - I'm really happy to hear that! I'm well aware that Tomioka is a double edged sword, but I feel like some of their industrial lenses are really great and well worth being saved from gathering dust in some shed or being thrown away.

Rumor has it… bokeh alone won‘t cut it! by simple.joy, on Flickr

A dead end, ant! And now? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Water mess by simple.joy, on Flickr

No screw-ups at launch by simple.joy, on Flickr

Drop the facade, you‘re green still! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Desperate attempts at capturing energy by simple.joy, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Man, these images are SO good. These are all the 75mm? Absolutely a lens I'm going to be on the lookout for.

simple.joy wrote:
kathala wrote:
simple.joy, thanks for those glorious pictures! I understand, but was never touched by, the Tomioka love, but those colours, sharpness and smoothness are quite divine!


Thank you very much - I'm really happy to hear that! I'm well aware that Tomioka is a double edged sword, but I feel like some of their industrial lenses are really great and well worth being saved from gathering dust in some shed or being thrown away.

Rumor has it… bokeh alone won‘t cut it! by simple.joy, on Flickr

A dead end, ant! And now? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Water mess by simple.joy, on Flickr

No screw-ups at launch by simple.joy, on Flickr

Drop the facade, you‘re green still! by simple.joy, on Flickr

Desperate attempts at capturing energy by simple.joy, on Flickr


PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianSVP wrote:
Man, these images are SO good. These are all the 75mm? Absolutely a lens I'm going to be on the lookout for.



Thanks a lot!

No, images 1 and 2 are made with the Tomioka Copal-E66 75 mm f/2.8, image 3 with the Tomioka Copal-E36 82 mm f/4, image 4 and 6 with the Copal E18C 40 mm f/4 and image 5 with the Tomioka Copal-E36 71 mm f/4 lens.

The Tomioka Copal-E66 75 mm f/2.8 is the most versatile of those lenses for sure, because it's faster than all the others, has a pretty round aperture shape and is more than reasonably sharp when stopped down a bit. So the following images are all taken with the 75 mm one:

Reignited! And you? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Nature smiling back at you by simple.joy, on Flickr

Music theory? It’s all a blur to me… by simple.joy, on Flickr

Part of glowing up by simple.joy, on Flickr

High time for some ice cone! by simple.joy, on Flickr

A show of forks by simple.joy, on Flickr

I thought it was among the rarest of those lenses, but I'm pretty sure two were sold recently... I have no idea who bought them though and if they will re-surface eventually.


PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2024 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
BrianSVP wrote:
Man, these images are SO good. These are all the 75mm? Absolutely a lens I'm going to be on the lookout for.



Thanks a lot!

No, images 1 and 2 are made with the Tomioka Copal-E66 75 mm f/2.8, image 3 with the Tomioka Copal-E36 82 mm f/4, image 4 and 6 with the Copal E18C 40 mm f/4 and image 5 with the Tomioka Copal-E36 71 mm f/4 lens.

The Tomioka Copal-E66 75 mm f/2.8 is the most versatile of those lenses for sure, because it's faster than all the others, has a pretty round aperture shape and is more than reasonably sharp when stopped down a bit. So the following images are all taken with the 75 mm one:

Reignited! And you? by simple.joy, on Flickr

Nature smiling back at you by simple.joy, on Flickr

Music theory? It’s all a blur to me… by simple.joy, on Flickr

Part of glowing up by simple.joy, on Flickr

High time for some ice cone! by simple.joy, on Flickr

A show of forks by simple.joy, on Flickr

I thought it was among the rarest of those lenses, but I'm pretty sure two were sold recently... I have no idea who bought them though and if they will re-surface eventually.


Not to get further off topic, but how did you adapt these? I just recently started to play with macro and would love to try these enlarger lenses. I'm sure this has been discussed before so sorry in advance.
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