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Itoh's Triumph: First high speed Japanese Portrait lens
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:04 am    Post subject: Itoh's Triumph: First high speed Japanese Portrait lens Reply with quote


Canon LTM 85/1.5 version 2.

In 1943 Leica introduced the 85/1.5 Summarex and the high speed 35mm portrait lens was born.

In this world there are Leica snobs, the rest of us, and a few good men: the leica killers.

Hiroshi Itoh, along with Jirou Mukai, were Canon's Leica killers. This lens, when it appeared in 1952 as the 85/1.5 serenar, was the first high speed japanese portrait lens and a direct challenge to Leica.

It was more than a challenge really, because this lens wiped the floor with the Summarex. The Nikon 85/1.5 soon followed, but only 1,353 were made.

I found this one in the UK and it arrived today Smile It's identical in optics to the original serenar, but slightly lighter.

SO lets take a look:

Wide open portraits first, that's why I bought it Wink

my first one:











OK OK, but what does it do at f8?





yow Smile

This lens has picked up a funny reputation best charactised by: "Huge and not very good until its stopped down", a quote from
http://www.antiquecameras.net/canonrflens.html

It does weigh around 700 grams, hehe. But funny enough its a pleasure to shoot Smile

And the question is seldom, "Is it sharp edge to edge wide open?" This is pretty silly, as we all know mtf will never be as much at 1.2, 1.1 or in this case an 85/1.5, as it is by f4.

The question is really, what does it do wide open? What is it's character?

One thing: at F8 it's hellachiously sharp---I think accross the frame. I added no contrast at all in the infinity landscape shot. Close in @f2 it seems quite crisp


Next, depending on interest: bokeh.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wonderful lens but please get a silver body. Smile


PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kansalliskala wrote:
Wonderful lens but please get a silver body. Smile


haha, I bet they are sleek, like


85/1.9 also by Itoh, as are:





the center 3 50s above

Canon LTM Lens designers:
Mr Hiroshi Itoh .............28mm f/3.5
Mr Hiroshi Itoh.............. 28mm f/2.8
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ..............35mm f/3.2
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ..............35mm f/2.8
Mr Hiroshi Itoh.............. 50mm f/1.2
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ..............50mm f/1.4
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ..............50mm f/1.8
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ..............85mm f/1.5
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ...............85mm f/1.9
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ...............100mm f/3.5
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ...............135mm f/2.5M
Mr Hiroshi Itoh ...............200mm f/3.5M
Mr Jirou Mukai ...............25mm f/3.5
Mr Jirou Mukai ...............35mm f/1.5
Mr Jirou Mukai ...............35mm f/1.8
Mr Jirou Mukai ...............35mm f/2
Mr Jirou Mukai ...............50mm f/0.95
Mr Jirou Mukai ...............50mm f/2.2
Mr Jirou Mukai ................50mm f/2.8
Mr Jirou Mukai ................85mm f/1.8
Mr Jirou Mukai ................100mm f/2
Mr Jirou Mukai ................135mm f/3.5
Mr Masana Kuroki........... 35mm f/3.5
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........50mm f/1.5
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........50mm f/1.9
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........8.5cm F/2
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........85mm f/2
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........10cm f/4
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........100mm f/4
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........1000mm f/11
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........400mm f/4.5
Mr Masana Kuroki............. 600mm f/5.6
Mr Masana Kuroki. ...........800mm f/8
Mr Ryouzou Furukawa .....5cm f/2 SK & CCCo
Mr Ryouzou Furukawa ......5cm f/3.5 SK & CCCo
Mr Ryouzou Furukawa ......50mm f/3.5
Mr Ryouzou Furukawa .......5cm f/1.5 SK X-Ray lens and was adapted to fit J & JS
Mr Ryouzou Furukawa .......75mm f/4.5 SK
Mr Ryouzou Furukawa .......13.5cm f/4 SK & CCCo
Mr Shuji Koyanagi .............19mm f/3.5
credit to canonRFinder at RFF--TY sir


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems a very sweet lens. You have gone about collecting some very nice glass.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Seems a very sweet lens. You have gone about collecting some very nice glass.


Nex lens compatablity + MFlenses.com = serious trouble. Smile

This is the most technically demanding lens I own right now wide open.

DOF is sinnfully tight, and you must be very steady as well,

The lens, like so many Canon RFs, is perhaps underated.

Someday I will find a helios 40--I was thinking this one might be similar, but in fact it's nowhere near so swirly.

a few more samples:

the nose Smile

dusk, over my jeep hood



100



all these at 1.5

for the record, I'm tongue in cheek in some of my descriptions---I am no expert, but just an enthusiast Wink


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Precisely same focal length and max aperture as Helios 40 and Cyclop, so likely same focus challenge, but better results at wide open. White or bright areas get lots of ghosting with Cyclop.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Precisely same focal length and max aperture as Helios 40 and Cyclop, so likely same focus challenge, but better results at wide open. White or bright areas get lots of ghosting with Cyclop.


I was surpised to see no purple fringe in the 1.5 night shot into the bookstore.

This lens is often labeled "soft wide open", but it is devilshly hard to focus and sensitive to light and movement.


100



100


what do we think about this performance from an 85 @ 1.5?

bokeh:



This is by far my most challenging lens to focus, eclisping even the soligor 135/2

It's also considered to have low contrast wide open--but I have not touched the blacks on any of these.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, so nice!

Dunno how it would handle larger sensors but.. damn! Smile


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Those toes need to be covered... and the second toe SHOULD NOT be longer than the big toe. Haven't you seen Shallow Hal?

The last picture is very nice as is the photo at dusk. I'm seeing similarities to the Cyclop I have. Unfortunately I do not have the Helios 40. The bookcase shot looks like it could have come from the Cyclop with that Fiction ghosting.

I think the claims of softness at wide open may come from the focusing difficulty and the lighting conditions. The contrast and color are going to be influenced by the Camera, I think, and the NEX shots I've seen (many from you) are excellent. From what I've seen, I'd take your results over a Helios 40/Cyclop, but there are the similarities I've mentioned - to include low CA and good sharpness at point of focus.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ChromaticAberration wrote:
Wow, so nice!

Dunno how it would handle larger sensors but.. damn! Smile


Remember, the NEX is APS-C, not 4/3.


PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
Those toes need to be covered... and the second toe SHOULD NOT be longer than the big toe. Haven't you seen Shallow Hal?

The last picture is very nice as is the photo at dusk. I'm seeing similarities to the Cyclop I have. Unfortunately I do not have the Helios 40. The bookcase shot looks like it could have come from the Cyclop with that Fiction ghosting.

I think the claims of softness at wide open may come from the focusing difficulty and the lighting conditions. The contrast and color are going to be influenced by the Camera, I think, and the NEX shots I've seen (many from you) are excellent. From what I've seen, I'd take your results over a Helios 40/Cyclop, but there are the similarities I've mentioned - to include low CA and good sharpness at point of focus.


I'd love to test it on an M9, who will send me one for a few days Wink

There is something highly attractive about this one--it's a 700 gram monster, but very pleasant to shoot with on the Nex--handling wise.

It does ghost a bit, no doubt---with considerable and unpredicatble variations Smile

the summilux 75/1.4 is now going for 3k at auction, which makes the 500 or so these seem to go for a bit more palatable. (kevincameras wants 1k of course)

AT the other end of the spectrum is the roki 85/1.4--damn nice for around 200USD.

But this is a real piece of history--an original GTO if you like---that still seems to deliver the goods 58 years after it's debut Smile

and while we carefully nitpick the wide open results (which I love to do), at F8 I doubt there are that many sharper 85s.

Pretty good for the first Japanese attempt at a fast 85. No 2, the nikon RF 85/1.5 goes for as much as 5k! Only 1300 made.

This one was probably made in 1955--no later than 1957. How many of these were produced in total?

2344.

Less in fact than the 85/1.8, which really surprised me.

Well, you say, those old Japanese RFs how many did they really make?

The Canon 50/1.2 LTM

OVER 46,000!!!!


PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
At 2.8 the lens seems very sharp across the frame

DOF is still a handfull, though (i will have to shoot some at f/2

Back to 1.5:


missed again Smile but I still like it

note her shirt under the arm on the lower right for focal point.

this one must be around 5.6 or more:


and one last, again wide open, which I like:



PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I find no fault with that lens. I'd put it on my watch list, but suspect will never find it within my price range. I have the Cyclop and a Vivitar 90mm, which is really 87mm, but your comment about the Samyang various name f/1.4 lenses has got me looking that way. Perhaps I've found a good candidate for my 60th birthday... if anyone actually asks.


PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
I find no fault with that lens. I'd put it on my watch list, but suspect will never find it within my price range. I have the Cyclop and a Vivitar 90mm, which is really 87mm, but your comment about the Samyang various name f/1.4 lenses has got me looking that way. Perhaps I've found a good candidate for my 60th birthday... if anyone actually asks.


Ive seen the samyang go for as cheap as 120USD on ebay, and results abound on flickr and elsewhere as the lens is very popular.

review:
http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/483-samyang_85_14_5d?start=2

Smile


PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2022 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is probably a dead thread but if not..

I would love some more info on the Canon 85mm F1.5

I have a black and silver version with purple coatings... I believe the mark 2? ... was there ever an amber coated version?

ALSO I'd really like to buy a copy of Peter's book... anyone have one for sale?

Does anyone know who designed the Retrofocal 19mm FL OR the FL 58mm F1.2... and of Hiroshi Itoh or Jirou Mukai was not involved what did they design post LTM lenses?

thank you

Michael

PS sorry if it offends anyone but I rehoused my LTM Canon's like this

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTPrpRnifaC/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Canon 85/1.5 uses the same 1-3-2-1: 7 element in 4 group layout of the Simlar 5cm F1.5. This is a double-Gauss design where the front doublet was split into a triplet with elements of lesser strength. Some people describe it as a "Half Sonnar", thrown off by the front triplet.

Of late- these lenses have increased in value 8x over a few years ago. They are now priced with the Nikkor 8.5cm F1.5 and the Summarex.

I'm not offended by people converting LTM to other mounts.

Eight is Enough by fiftyonepointsix, on Flickr

I've converted enough TO LTM mount to balance it out.
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