Are lens designs copyrighted?

[CuriousOne]

Hello.

Recently we were able to aquire a military observation equipment spare parts set, which was made by one famous lens manufacturer and includes almost all components required to build two types of lens (50mm F1.2 and 85mm F1.2), except lens body and helicoid. The lens specs are so fine that it's very tempting to manufacture new bodies and put lens on the sale. The question is, whenever the lens design (4 elements in 3 groups, as I've guessed, but not Tessar) is copyrighted and we might face copyright issues from the manufacturer? (which is currently active and doing well). This particular lens design is available online, in wikipedia, and quite well documented.

What do you think?

[danfromm]

Lens designs are patented, not copyrighted.

I'm not a lawyer so it isn't safe to act on any advice I give but I believe that nothing prevents you from assembling the components you've acquired and selling them. What you can't/shouldn't do is represent them as genuine products of the original manufacturer.

[luisalegria]

Patented, usually, not copyrighted.
Patents have a shorter lifetime than copyrights, which can be absurdly long.

Most simple lens designs have long-expired patents.
Thats why everybody had a copy of the Tessar, after the patents expired.

You can look for patent markings on the thing and do a patent search.

[ZoneV]

I think this depends wheter there is an active patent or not - probably not for the general Tessar design but some technology involved in this lens.

[luisalegria]

BTW, lens design NAMES are copyrighted, so if you make a copy of this you probably cant use the original name.

[CuriousOne]

So if I understand properly, for sure I can't write "ZEISS" on lens if all parts are geniune ZEISS parts, but can I write "Tessar" or not?
The stock of part is low, probably I can do 3-4 lens only, but still interesting.

[kansalliskala]

You can call it "Aus Home"

[luisalegria]

Dont know if you can write "Tessar".

It looks like Zeiss is still using it as a trademark, or was using it recently.

I don't think anyone else has ever used "Tessar" without Zeiss relationships.

Best to get an expert on that.

[danfromm]

[luisalegria]

True. I have a 1950's B&L Tessar.
Nobody else though, and B&L had an old deal with Zeiss pre-WWI to use "Tessar" - I have a B&L Tessar from @1914.
After that they just carried on apparently without paying Zeiss.
That was a unique arrangement I think.
Has anyone since B&L ever used "Tessar" in a trademark ?

[scsambrook]

Drifting slightly off-topic, but somewhat connected with B&L's use of the Tessar name . . .

Bausch & Lomb had a complex - and partly clandestine - relationship with Zeiss which began early in the 1900s and lasted until the USA declared war against Germany after Pearl Harbor. The company was at one time very sensitive about that part of its history, probably because it ran into serious allegations about conflicts of interest and its loyalties to the USA even before the outbreak of World War II. It's still difficult to find out just what B&L has in its company archive about the extent of its connections with Zeiss, although the gist of its problems with the US government can easily be found thanks to Mr Google.

[CuriousOne]

According to USPTO website:

http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4801:k1ylr8.2.2

Tessar is "live" trademark and registered to: ZEISS, CARL COMPOSED OF SIEGFRIED CZAPSKI, MAX FISCHER, AND RUDOLF STRAUBEL, CITIZENS OF THE GERMAN EMPIRE. FIRM FED REP GERMANY NO. 2 CARL ZEISS STRASSE SAXE-WEIMAR FED REP GERMANY since September 14, 1906

[luisalegria]

Heh. Thanks.

Registered US trademark since 1906, and still active.
Thats much longer than even Walt Disney has held copyright.

So nobody better get the idea to call anything a Sonnar, Protar, Biotar, either. I bet they are also still registered.

Best to make up a new name. And do a copyright search for that !

If I were to manufacture a lens, maybe I'll call it a Friscotar.

[CuriousOne]

Interesting, Biotar is not registered

[CuriousOne]

"Protar" is also available:

Word Mark PROTAR
Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 005. US 018 052. G & S: a Medicated Shampoo for the Treatment of Psoriasis and Dandruff. FIRST USE: 19830606. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19840502

[Abbazz]

[CuriousOne]

I've tried to "assemble" both lens using pvc pipe pieces and scotch tape, hand held next to my NEX-3. Results are so so, with lot of light leaking and various distortions and CAs on various parts of an image - caused by fact that optical surfaces aren't parallel. However, both lens looks promising, especially 50mm - has helios-like rotated bokeh, but out of focus light sources tend to form ovals, not rounds. Will post some samples later.

[CuriousOne]

Here they are, 50mm first:



85mm next:



Attempt to take picture of test chart using 85mm one:

[Gerald]

[CuriousOne]

As mentioned in the 1st post, these glass components come from the lens assembly which was incorporated in military equipment.

[tromboads]

yes but you still have to put them together

I imagine it will be a tough gig. Don't let me put you of it tho! I wish you well!

[PBFACTS]

[philslizzy]

You could sell them under a new name and mention that they are re-constructed Tessars (using that name as an example) taken from military equipment. You've not said what these are out of, if its not camera equipment they may not be of high enough quality for photographic use.

Are they from nightvision scopes?

BTW the oval bokeh is due to the lenses being out of parallel. The image on the test target looks as if the rear element is reversed.

I have a Minolta AF 35-70 and that is copyrighted according to the inscription on the rear.

[CuriousOne]

OK, got 50mm one assembled at least!

IQ is, how to say, despite having large coverage (no noticeable vignetting on APC-S), this lens appears to be designed for 8mm equipment only, since, outside the 8mm frame area, image becomes blurry and with strong barrel distortions. But this happens on close distances only. All shots are shot at F1.2, aperture priority, ISO auto, NEX 3.

Daytime shots will follow...

[CuriousOne]

Very interesting distortions!