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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:08 pm Post subject: Are lens designs copyrighted? |
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CuriousOne wrote:
Hello.
Recently we were able to aquire a military observation equipment spare parts set, which was made by one famous lens manufacturer and includes almost all components required to build two types of lens (50mm F1.2 and 85mm F1.2), except lens body and helicoid. The lens specs are so fine that it's very tempting to manufacture new bodies and put lens on the sale. The question is, whenever the lens design (4 elements in 3 groups, as I've guessed, but not Tessar) is copyrighted and we might face copyright issues from the manufacturer? (which is currently active and doing well). This particular lens design is available online, in wikipedia, and quite well documented.
What do you think? _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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danfromm
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 577
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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danfromm wrote:
Lens designs are patented, not copyrighted.
I'm not a lawyer so it isn't safe to act on any advice I give but I believe that nothing prevents you from assembling the components you've acquired and selling them. What you can't/shouldn't do is represent them as genuine products of the original manufacturer. |
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luisalegria
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
Patented, usually, not copyrighted.
Patents have a shorter lifetime than copyrights, which can be absurdly long.
Most simple lens designs have long-expired patents.
Thats why everybody had a copy of the Tessar, after the patents expired.
You can look for patent markings on the thing and do a patent search. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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ZoneV
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 09 Nov 2009 Posts: 1632 Location: Germany
Expire: 2011-12-02
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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ZoneV wrote:
I think this depends wheter there is an active patent or not - probably not for the general Tessar design but some technology involved in this lens. _________________ Camera modification, repair and DIY - some links to look through: http://www.4photos.de/camera-diy/index-en.html
I AM A LENS NERD!
Epis, Elmaron, Emerald, Ernostar, Helioplan and Heidosmat.
Epiotar, Kameraobjektiv, Anastigmat, Epis, Meganast, Magnagon, Quinar, Culmigon, Novotrinast, Novflexar, Colorplan, Sekor, Kinon, Talon, Telemegor, Xenon, Xenar, Ultra, Ultra Star. Tessar, Janar, Visionar, Kiptar, Kipronar and Rotelar.
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luisalegria
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
BTW, lens design NAMES are copyrighted, so if you make a copy of this you probably cant use the original name. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
So if I understand properly, for sure I can't write "ZEISS" on lens if all parts are geniune ZEISS parts, but can I write "Tessar" or not?
The stock of part is low, probably I can do 3-4 lens only, but still interesting. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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kansalliskala
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5030 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
You can call it "Aus Home" ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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luisalegria
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
Dont know if you can write "Tessar".
It looks like Zeiss is still using it as a trademark, or was using it recently.
I don't think anyone else has ever used "Tessar" without Zeiss relationships.
Best to get an expert on that. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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danfromm
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 04 Sep 2011 Posts: 577
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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danfromm wrote:
luisalegria wrote: |
I don't think anyone else has ever used "Tessar" without Zeiss relationships.
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B&L did from 1915 until some time after WW II. The Zeiss relationship was broken in 1915.
I have a post-WW II 158/6.3 B&L Tessar IIb (so engraved). Its even coated. |
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luisalegria
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
True. I have a 1950's B&L Tessar.
Nobody else though, and B&L had an old deal with Zeiss pre-WWI to use "Tessar" - I have a B&L Tessar from @1914.
After that they just carried on apparently without paying Zeiss.
That was a unique arrangement I think.
Has anyone since B&L ever used "Tessar" in a trademark ? _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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scsambrook
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 29 Mar 2009 Posts: 2167 Location: Glasgow Scotland
Expire: 2011-11-18
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Posted: Tue May 13, 2014 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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scsambrook wrote:
Drifting slightly off-topic, but somewhat connected with B&L's use of the Tessar name . . .
Bausch & Lomb had a complex - and partly clandestine - relationship with Zeiss which began early in the 1900s and lasted until the USA declared war against Germany after Pearl Harbor. The company was at one time very sensitive about that part of its history, probably because it ran into serious allegations about conflicts of interest and its loyalties to the USA even before the outbreak of World War II. It's still difficult to find out just what B&L has in its company archive about the extent of its connections with Zeiss, although the gist of its problems with the US government can easily be found thanks to Mr Google. _________________ Stephen
Equipment: Pentax DSLR for casual shooting, Lumix G1 and Fuji XE-1 for playing with old lenses, and Leica M8 because I still like the optical rangefinder system. |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
According to USPTO website:
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4801:k1ylr8.2.2
Tessar is "live" trademark and registered to: ZEISS, CARL COMPOSED OF SIEGFRIED CZAPSKI, MAX FISCHER, AND RUDOLF STRAUBEL, CITIZENS OF THE GERMAN EMPIRE. FIRM FED REP GERMANY NO. 2 CARL ZEISS STRASSE SAXE-WEIMAR FED REP GERMANY since September 14, 1906 ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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luisalegria
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Mar 2008 Posts: 6602 Location: San Francisco, USA
Expire: 2018-01-18
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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luisalegria wrote:
Heh. Thanks.
Registered US trademark since 1906, and still active.
Thats much longer than even Walt Disney has held copyright.
So nobody better get the idea to call anything a Sonnar, Protar, Biotar, either. I bet they are also still registered.
Best to make up a new name. And do a copyright search for that !
If I were to manufacture a lens, maybe I'll call it a Friscotar. _________________ I like Pentax DSLR's, Exaktas, M42 bodies of all kinds, strange and cheap Japanese lenses, and am dabbling in medium format/Speed Graphic work. |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:27 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
Interesting, Biotar is not registered ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:30 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
"Protar" is also available:
Word Mark PROTAR
Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 005. US 018 052. G & S: a Medicated Shampoo for the Treatment of Psoriasis and Dandruff. FIRST USE: 19830606. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19840502
![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Abbazz
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 23 Jun 2007 Posts: 1098 Location: Jakarta
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: Re: Are lens designs copyrighted? |
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Abbazz wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
two types of lens (50mm F1.2 and 85mm F1.2) [...] the lens design (4 elements in 3 groups, as I've guessed, but not Tessar)
What do you think? |
I think you don't need to bother for a 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 lens with 4 elements in 3 groups. The lenses would need to be closed down to F/2.8-3.5 at least to reach decent sharpness levels.
Cheers!
Abbazz _________________ Il n'y a rien dans le monde qui n'ait son moment decisif, et le chef-d'oeuvre de la bonne conduite est de connaitre et de prendre ce moment. - Cardinal de Retz
The 6x9 Photography Online Resource:
http://artbig.com/ |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
I've tried to "assemble" both lens using pvc pipe pieces and scotch tape, hand held next to my NEX-3. Results are so so, with lot of light leaking and various distortions and CAs on various parts of an image - caused by fact that optical surfaces aren't parallel. However, both lens looks promising, especially 50mm - has helios-like rotated bokeh, but out of focus light sources tend to form ovals, not rounds. Will post some samples later. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
Here they are, 50mm first:
85mm next:
Attempt to take picture of test chart using 85mm one:
![](http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20145/7693_85mm2_1.jpg) _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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Gerald
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 25 Mar 2014 Posts: 1196 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Gerald wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
I've tried to "assemble" both lens using pvc pipe pieces and scotch tape, hand held next to my NEX-3. Results are so so, with lot of light leaking and various distortions and CAs on various parts of an image - caused by fact that optical surfaces aren't parallel. However, both lens looks promising, especially 50mm - has helios-like rotated bokeh, but out of focus light sources tend to form ovals, not rounds. Will post some samples later. |
Wow! Maybe you're being overly optimistic.
It is not enough to combine casually individual lenses to get a good photographic objective. The curvatures and separations of the individual lenses, the refractive indices and dispersions of the optical glasses, all need to be strictly calculated and controlled to get a functional lens. The centralization and spacing of individual elements must be kept within a tolerance of thousandths or hundredths of a millimeter. A single grain of dust in the assembly of a lens can degrade performance.
Making quality lenses is so difficult that there are fewer countries making photographic lenses than countries making cars. _________________ If raindrops were perfect lenses, the rainbow did not exist. |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 4:49 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
As mentioned in the 1st post, these glass components come from the lens assembly which was incorporated in military equipment. _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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tromboads
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 29 May 2012 Posts: 1655 Location: Melbourne AU
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Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:50 am Post subject: |
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tromboads wrote:
yes but you still have to put them together
I imagine it will be a tough gig. Don't let me put you of it tho! I wish you well! ![Smile](images/smiles/icon_smile.gif) |
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PBFACTS
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 24 Dec 2008 Posts: 566
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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PBFACTS wrote:
CuriousOne wrote: |
So if I understand properly, for sure I can't write "ZEISS" on lens if all parts are geniune ZEISS parts, but can I write "Tessar" or not? |
It is even more restrictive
Whatever a very famous name is copyrighted OR NOT... you CANNOT use it
Imagine Porsche or Coca-Cola/Coke tms..
Even if it is to make toilet paper .. which is a market very far from cars or drinks (i imagine that porsche or coca-cola did not register their tms for toilet paper !) you CANNOT use their names because these are famous enough to be known by therself (=everebody know coca-cola or porsche)
pbfacts _________________ OM USER .. I KEEP/USE:
Om2 sp + T32 (grip/filter/zoom) + T8
+ Zuiko 16mm 3.5 / 55mm 1.2 / 65-200 4/ x1.4
+ Sigma 8mm 4.0 / 14mm 3.5 / 18-35 3.5-4.5
+ Tamron 35/105 2.8
+Tokina 150/500 5.6
+ Kiron 105/2.8 macro 1:1
+ Vivitar S1 90/180 falst field macro
+ 2x Doubler HR7
>>I SELL: OM10 + OM4ti
+ i sell: OM Md1 + Md 2 + Grip PowerPack + charger
+ i sell: OM Zuiko 24mm 2.8 / 28mm 3.5 / 50mm 1.8 / 50mm 1.4 / 50mm 3.5 macro / 35-70 3.6 / 35-105 3.5-4.5 / 75-150 4 / 500mm / 2xA
+ i sell: OM Kiron 28/105 3.2-4.5 / 1.5 converter
+ i sell: OM Makinon reflex 5.6/300 + Spector reflex (makinon) 500mm
+ i sell: OM Macro panagor extender 1:1
+ i sell: OM Sigma 16mm 2.8 fisheye (last version) / 21-35 3.5-4.2 ot/ 28-70 2.8 /1000mm mirror
+ i sell: Tamron 28-70 3.5-4.5 / 28-80 sp 3.5-4.2 / 28-135 sp 4-4.5 / /28-200 3.5 / 35-135 3..5-4.5 / 90mm sp macro 1:1 2.8
+ i sell: OM Soligor 2x doubler / x3 converte
+ i sell: Soligor FisheEye x0.15
+ i sell: OM Tokina 28/135 4-4.6 / 70/210 3.5 (= vivitar S1 v2)
+ i sell: OM Vivitar 28-70 3.5-4.8 / 28-90 s1 2.8-3.5 / 35-70 2.8-3.8 / 55/2.8 Macro 1:1 (komine) / 70-150 3.8 ot (kiron) / 75-150 ot 3.8 (tokina + 2x matched)
+ i sell : OM cosina 100-500 5.6/8 |
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philslizzy
![Level 4 Level 4](rating4.gif) Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4741 Location: Cheshire, England
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Posted: Sat May 24, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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philslizzy wrote:
You could sell them under a new name and mention that they are re-constructed Tessars (using that name as an example) taken from military equipment. You've not said what these are out of, if its not camera equipment they may not be of high enough quality for photographic use.
Are they from nightvision scopes?
BTW the oval bokeh is due to the lenses being out of parallel. The image on the test target looks as if the rear element is reversed.
I have a Minolta AF 35-70 and that is copyrighted according to the inscription on the rear.
![](http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20145/5918_d9cdb78a2a7840714cc236e81a384cf7_1.jpg) _________________ Hero in the 'messin-with-cameras-for-the-hell-of-it department'. Official. |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2014 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
OK, got 50mm one assembled at least!
IQ is, how to say, despite having large coverage (no noticeable vignetting on APC-S), this lens appears to be designed for 8mm equipment only, since, outside the 8mm frame area, image becomes blurry and with strong barrel distortions. But this happens on close distances only. All shots are shot at F1.2, aperture priority, ISO auto, NEX 3.
Daytime shots will follow...
![](http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20146/7693_5013_1.jpg) _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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CuriousOne
![Level 3 Level 3](rating3.gif) Joined: 31 Dec 2013 Posts: 669 Location: Home
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Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:26 am Post subject: |
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CuriousOne wrote:
Very interesting distortions!
![](http://forum.mflenses.com/userpix/20146/7693_5016_1.jpg) _________________ I have nothing to compensate with lens |
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