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The Riddle of the extra Zeiss nameplate
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: The Riddle of the extra Zeiss nameplate Reply with quote
The story of usage of the Carl Zeiss name by DDR produced lenses is well known. Maybe not so well known is that for simplicity and cost the DDR factory produced extra nameplates which covered the "Carl Zeiss Jena" one. The extra nameplates can have Jens, Aus Jena or for the US market C.Z. Jena with = signs on the stop and focus parameters.

Most of the time but not always they can be spotted by a deeper slope on the bezel and also the slots in the nameplate, the originals had a flatter bezel. They mainly apply to Tessars and Pancolars and I have yet to see a Flek like this. Sometimes if lucky you might find a Flexon under a Pancolar nameplate Smile

I have rooted one out from my box of lens repair spares that I have collected over the years and show below. The first image is with the nameplate fitted and in the second it is removed. Note the change in serial number.

The images are for the two tone Pancolar 2/50mm Star Wars with red DOF pointers and black pearl necklace.

Isn't she lovely?

( and for fun, can you guess the parts of two other lenses in the photos )




PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sonnar 135s are also seen like this, as are Tessars, and they usually have T aus Jena or S aus Jena as Tessar and Sonnar were names owned by the Western Zeiss, Pancolar wasn't.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some of these lenses were actually made in Japan and the nameplate replaced with a "German" nameplate.

A long time ago I sold an Exakta camera with a Pancolor lens on eBay, and the lens nameplate fell off when the buyer got it, which revealed a Japanese nameplate beneath it.

The buyer accused me of actually creating a new nameplate to "cheat" him, and it resulted in a negative feedback. After a lot of research I found out this was done by the manufacturer itself!

Some of this is discussed in this thread:

http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00M21d


PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What Steven Moseley wrote on that link is completely wrong, as Dan Fromm says in reply, he just added to the mountain of misinformation.

These lenses were not made in Japan, they are Zeiss lenses made in Jena, just the nameplate was added due to legal wrangles with Zeiss Oberkochen in the West.

Some 'Carl Zeiss Jena' lenses were made by Cosina and Sigma in the 1990s after the end of Carl Zeiss Jena. They are totally different to the real deal and a whole different topic of discussion.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope that such articles help keeping Jena's prices down a little Twisted Evil


PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
What Steven Moseley wrote on that link is completely wrong, as Dan Fromm says in reply, he just added to the mountain of misinformation.

These lenses were not made in Japan, they are Zeiss lenses made in Jena, just the nameplate was added due to legal wrangles with Zeiss Oberkochen in the West.

Some 'Carl Zeiss Jena' lenses were made by Cosina and Sigma in the 1990s after the end of Carl Zeiss Jena. They are totally different to the real deal and a whole different topic of discussion.


There's two different things going on here. There were lenses made in Japan for the Exaktas in the final days of VX1000/500, and probably during the production of RTL1000. These have shown up occasionally with a "Pancolar" name ring on them, even though they were made in Japan. The U.S. importer apparently having the right to distribute products with the "Pancolar" name used them on what were otherwise sold as Exaktar lenses. At the same time there were also Japanese made Edixagon and Regulon lenses for the Edixa and Regula cameras respectively.

What the thread on photo.net is talking about is the difference between Zeiss west and Zeiss East. Which is an entirely different matter altogether.

With regards to the varieties of marking in the U.S., the official importer of a line was the importer that got to sell products with a particular trademark or brand name. This did not mean that they were an exclusive importer, and other companies could and did import cameras and lenses from the same companies. But they weren't allowed to sell them with the trademarked names, they ground them off, or riveted new names over them, or put on new name rings to cover up the original brand. Just take a look at how many brand names the Praktica FX and Pentacon cameras were sold under in the U.S.: Hexacon, Consol, Rival Reflex, Astraflex, Columbia Reflex, etc. But only one importer was allowed to import and sell "Praktica" cameras.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
That thread on photo.net is a waste of time as it's full of misinformation.

Let's be clear here, we are talking about lenses made by Carl Zeiss Jena that have received a new name ring, nothing to do with Japan, those other lenses are outside the scope of this thread, whether Japanese or otherwise.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
What Steven Moseley wrote on that link is completely wrong, as Dan Fromm says in reply, he just added to the mountain of misinformation.

These lenses were not made in Japan, they are Zeiss lenses made in Jena, just the nameplate was added due to legal wrangles with Zeiss Oberkochen in the West.

Some 'Carl Zeiss Jena' lenses were made by Cosina and Sigma in the 1990s after the end of Carl Zeiss Jena. They are totally different to the real deal and a whole different topic of discussion.

+1


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You're welcome. I knew my providing insight on the matter of swapped name rings would be appreciated.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Flexon is made for Praktina , rare but available time to time. Made in factory just like all T, AUS JENA etc , result of legal battle between to Zeiss factory.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
How interesting! I've never seen that before.

I don't see any reason why Japanese-made lenses would need the new nameplate. AFAIK they didn't start making "Zeiss" lenses in Asia until well after the Zeiss court case was settled.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
peterqd wrote:
How interesting! I've never seen that before.
I don't see any reason why Japanese-made lenses would need the new nameplate. AFAIK they didn't start making "Zeiss" lenses in Asia until well after the Zeiss court case was settled.


Maybe the Japanese company which got the license to use the Carl Zeiss Jena brand (they made some lenses, don't know exactly which and how many of them) decided to "convert" to Zeiss brand some of their previous production.
This is just my wild guess, it's the only thing I can thin of that could explain the phenomenon.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
M. Valdemar wrote:
Some of these lenses were actually made in Japan and the nameplate replaced with a "German" nameplate.

A long time ago I sold an Exakta camera with a Pancolor lens on eBay, and the lens nameplate fell off when the buyer got it, which revealed a Japanese nameplate beneath it.

The buyer accused me of actually creating a new nameplate to "cheat" him, and it resulted in a negative feedback. After a lot of research I found out this was done by the manufacturer itself!

Some of this is discussed in this thread:

http://photo.net/classic-cameras-forum/00M21d



Becarefull in reading that article because in one of the comments i saw someone post this :


Quote:
Dan Fromm , Jul 28, 2007; 08:22 a.m.
Y'know, Steve, CZJ in the DDR made many fine lenses. And Zeiss Oberkochen in the BRD made lenses in M42 for, e.g., the Icarex TM.

I don't know what you intended, but you've added more misinformation to the mountains of it already here on photo.net and elsewhere on the Web.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just read topic opening Carl Zeiss 'jena' proper Zeiss company and other bullshits.. Carl Zeiss Jena was established century ago than Oberkochen factory did start to use Carl Zeiss name... Carl Zeiss Jena DDR at least same proper than Carl Zeiss Oberkochen or even better due still did work at genuine place Jena... to make mouth karate which one is better, which one is legal blah , blah miserable

Both factory had great German people and made beautiful things, just look Carl Zeiss Jena Pancolar 80 or Carl Zeiss Jena Biotar 75mm as evidence of quality of eastern factory...

What I never ever forget for Carl Zeiss, once they won in useless stupid battle and occupied East German factory they did hammered all lenses in Jena factory including prototypes, documentation everything... vandals. Info did come from a well established member here, I believe it 100%.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hey John,Thanks for posting the images.I have two M42 Pancolars and both look like the 2nd image with the deep recessed name plate.the serials are 6495553 and6631659. I wonder if they used to have the extra plate?..damn they would have been nice to have.My Pancolars do not have the peral necklace.

I love these lenses I missed out on a third when I judged it too be a little high in price...I regret that decision now... Embarassed


PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks Mo

I have seen your past posts about your Pancolars. I love Pancolars from the 1960's, my favs are the style in the image up top and the Zebras and judging by your serial numbers your lenses are from the 60's

Sometimes you might see an old junker Tessar with pearl necklace which you can harvest for your Pancolars. I didnt do this with mine but I have seen posts about people doing it. You have to disassemble and steam it off as it is made of a brittle plastic composite.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBar wrote:
Thanks Mo

I have seen your past posts about your Pancolars. I love Pancolars from the 1960's, my favs are the style in the image up top and the Zebras and judging by your serial numbers your lenses are from the 60's

Sometimes you might see an old junker Tessar with pearl necklace which you can harvest for your Pancolars. I didnt do this with mine but I have seen posts about people doing it. You have to disassemble and steam it off as it is made of a brittle plastic composite.


That's very interesting information,however because I like things how I bought them and only ever get them repaired, I could not replace the grip...silly, but that's me. I am not sure how old my lenses are...is there a way to find a date for them? I have seen a M42 pancolar with a 5***etc serial number.It would be nice to get a serial range of when the styles changed in the pancolar line up of the 2/50 lens.

I will keep an eye out for that "pearl" style as it does have the Cool look about it. Cool and I did not know that Tessars came in that style.


PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think there were 5 -6 different styles for the Pancolar 2/50 ending with the Zebra version 800 series

The serial info came from this site

http://www.mflenses.com/carl-zeiss-jena-issue-date-by-serial-number.html

so that 500 series is maybe a 59er


PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JohnBar wrote:
I think there were 5 -6 different styles for the Pancolar 2/50 ending with the Zebra version 800 series

The serial info came from this site

http://www.mflenses.com/carl-zeiss-jena-issue-date-by-serial-number.html

so that 500 series is maybe a 59er

Embarassed I live mainly in the forum and forget to check out the rest of this great website...thanks for the link.


PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: The Riddle of the extra Zeiss nameplate Reply with quote
JohnBar wrote:
They mainly apply to Tessars and Pancolars and I have yet to see a Flek like this.



Today I received my Flektogon and while cleaning it I found this surprise.



PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: The Riddle of the extra Zeiss nameplate Reply with quote
Now I have Smile



inombrable wrote:
JohnBar wrote:
They mainly apply to Tessars and Pancolars and I have yet to see a Flek like this.



Today I received my Flektogon and while cleaning it I found this surprise.



PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pleasant surprise Smile congrats!


PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:


Some 'Carl Zeiss Jena' lenses were made by Cosina and Sigma in the 1990s after the end of Carl Zeiss Jena. They are totally different to the real deal and a whole different topic of discussion.


I had one until recently and it did say on the barrel made under licence in Japan. Listings on ebay mislead the unwary by not actually mentioning it and implying that it is made by CZJ.
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