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which 400 / 500 mm to get?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:49 am    Post subject: which 400 / 500 mm to get? Reply with quote
I'm considering a super-long telephoto lens for my Olympus E-M5 to use from a tripod for occasional birding, etc. .... shouldn't be too expensive. I do know the value of apochromatic / low dispersion glass in that focal length. Basically I am considering these, the stars are availability / price:

Sigma Apo 400/5.6 *****
Sigma Apo 400/5.6 Macro (auto focus which I won't use anyway on MFT) *
Tokina 400/5.6 SD (manual focus) ***
Tokina 400/5.6 AT-X SD (again, auto focus) **
Rubinar 500/5.6 mirror ***
MTO 500/6.3 mirror ***

Are there any other lenses I should consider?

I found an online review of the 400 Tokina SD here but I have to say that I'm not that happy with what I see there, because it seems to be very prone to color fringing:
http://www.markptak.com/tests/tokina400mm/index.htm
I don't know if there is an optical difference between the manual and AF Tokinas? I do know that the manual one only close focuses to 4m and the AF variant to 2.5m, but is that only because of the mechanics or because of changed optical design?

To the Sigma – I've read very different reviews and it seems that they have some problem with hazed elements? Is that affecting almost EVERY Sigma? Should I just stay away from it? The main plus of the Sigma is that it's readily available, there are always several examples at auction and the prices are good. I read that as a sign that it sold much better than the Tokinas in its day. The later Apo Macro however is rare, very heavy (600gr more) and expensive, so not on top of my current list. Thomas


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What about Nikon 400mm F5.6... I had one and it was excellent, too bad I sold it long time ago...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tokina SD 5.6/400 is not very good, I'd avoid that one.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have the Sigma APO 400mm 5.6 Macro AF. It's a very nice lens and from what I remember it received quite some good reviews, see here for example:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=130&sort=7&cat=38&page=1

Last edited by diddy on Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
the smc takumar 400mm f5.6 in m42 mount is pretty good for the money


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
RAART wrote:
What about Nikon 400mm F5.6... I had one and it was excellent, too bad I sold it long time ago...


+1. Nikon Nikkor 400mm F/5.6 is a wonderful lens. I also had it before and also sold when moved to 500mm prime. Very sharp and well corrected chromatic aberration. Internal focusing version is more common and also easier to use. It is also very compact for 400mm lens and not too difficult to hand hold.

Alex


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
diddy wrote:
I have the Sigma APO 400mm 5.6 Macro AF. It's a very nice lens and from what I remember it received quite some good reviews, see here for example:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/reviews/showproduct.php?product=130&sort=7&cat=38&page=1


I once had the similar Sigma APO Macro 300/4 and used it on my then-current EOS 7D and also a friend used it on his EOS 1Ds2. It was a wonderful lens.

However it's more expensive than the other 400s, and I can't use the AF anyway on MFT. Also it's really heavy, 1600 vs. 1000 gramm is a somewhat big difference to me when I haul it to the birding spot, including tripod and all.

So, in short, I know the APO Macro is a great lens, but right now I'd rather have a somewhat lighter and cheaper alternative, but if there isn't any, I'd probably take the plunge again ....


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I agree that the Tokina SD 400mm/5.6 lens is useless for pretty much anything. I had the same intentions. To get a cheap long lens for birds, found the Tokina (wasn't really that cheap when I think about it) and then quickly abandoned the idea. Wasn't good enough...


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you both talking about the manual focus Tokina SD or the AT-X SD? I don't know yet if they are different optics.

The manual focus looks like this:
http://www.photoinfos.com/Fototechnik/Objektive/Tokina-SD-400mm/Tokina-400mm-208a.jpg

AT-X SD here:
http://davidp.org/img/tokina2.jpg

I know that this is a manual focus lens forum but it's kind of a grey area, probably, if some lenses were made in both AF and MF versions. And I'm going to use it MF-only anyway as the AF is not supported on MFT.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
none Smile good lens above 300mm unpayable, and not give much above 300mm. Usually same short than 300mm if you can't enough close with 300mm 400-500mm will short too. Friend on mine was pro photographer 7 yrs to NG he did use 300mm Nikon F2.8 and always went to close what need .


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's a small local "birdwatching paradise" at a former gravel pit that has been renaturalised and I thought I probably could try and get some pictures there. Here are pictures taken in that location (not from me !!) ....

http://www.fotoreiseberichte.de/koeln/koeln_hornpottweg.htm

.... and the close-up shots were taken with 560mm equivalent focal length (according to the EXIF data) on a compact superzoom camera.

The thing is that there is a pathway around that lake and you have fixed spots where to look down onto the lake, you just can't get any closer than that. I'm pretty sure that when photographing there, you'll end up with cropping your pictures in post, and all that nasty stuff that any photo book always tells you to avoid...

I'd just like to get "as close as feasible" by not spending a fortune, after all, this is only a hobby for me, at this stage. Right now, my lens setup stops at 200mm (which gives a 400mm eq. field of view on MFT cameras). I also have a Russian 500/8 mirror which is not that bad actually, but it's really very slow, and also donut bokeh is sometimes an issue.

I also thought about a small telescope, something like one of the small modern ED scopes – 66/400 or 70/420 or so. The main reason is that I'm also into watching stars, so it would probably be not that rarely used as a 400mm telephoto lens which I would ONLY use for very occasional photography. The downside is that you never can stop these things down.... OTOH with f/6.6 or so, would you wanna stop down anyway? And including a field flattener, which seems mandatory for photography, it becomes a somewhat expensive thing all-in-all.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In this case from affordable one I did try and found pretty nice

Novoflex 40cm f5.6. long but light weight , follow focus is great, fast and precise
Konishiroku 40cm f4.5, huge heavy , but fast ,very rare Sad
Tamron SP 500mm f8 small light weight
MTO 500mm f8 small light weight
MTO 500mm f6.3 diameter is large not every camera fit on it, several camera has issue with flash house
Pentacon 500mm f5.6 heavy 2.5 kg and long
Sigma 400mm f5.6 APO , simple MC is crap ! small and light weight.

Tamron SP 350mm best from all above from every aspects, IQ, size
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/japenese/Tamron/tamron_sp_350mm_f5_6/?


http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/german/pentacon/500mm/?
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/german/novoflex/novoflex_40cm_f5_6/?
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/russian_lens/3m-6a/?
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/russian_lens/mc3m5ca/?
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/japenese/Tamron/tamron_sp_500_f8_55bb/?
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/japenese/sigma/sigma_400mm_f5_6/?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As you say.....

Tamron SP 500mm & 350mm Mirrors Yes !

MTO 500mm f6.3 Mirror No! - too big and heavy
Pentacon 500mm f5.6 No! - too long and heavy

Try one of the older WunderTube Lenses they give surprisingly good results but aren't fast.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
In mirror lenses, I fully agree with Attila about the Tamron SP 500 F8. I have the 55B version, the one including the hood.

Some shots with it :

on fullframe (5D MkII) :
http://forum.mflenses.com/cat-with-a-cat-lens-tamron-sp-500-f8-t36498,highlight,%2Btamron+%2Bsp+%2B500.html
http://forum.mflenses.com/visit-at-the-zoo-tamron-sp-500-f8-part-1-t37284,highlight,%2Btamron+%2Bsp+%2B500.html
http://forum.mflenses.com/visit-at-the-zoo-tamron-sp-500-f8-part-2-t37287,highlight,%2Btamron+%2Bsp+%2B500.html
http://forum.mflenses.com/aglais-urticae-butterfly-tamron-sp-500-f8-t40938,highlight,%2Btamron+%2Bsp+%2B500.html

on APSC (40D) :
http://forum.mflenses.com/tamron-sp-500-f8-on-40d-handheld-t50357,highlight,%2Btamron+%2Bsp+%2B500.html

on M4/3 (Pen E-P2) :
http://forum.mflenses.com/tamron-sp-500mm-f8-on-pen-e-p2-t46862,highlight,%2Bpen.html


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
martyn_bannister wrote:

Try one of the older WunderTube Lenses they give surprisingly good results but aren't fast.


+1 I forgot it, I had Beroflex labelled 500mm f8 give it pretty good result.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a mirror lens (actually two, plus a mirror telescope) and for some occasions I do love taking pictures with it, but I fear that for this kind of pictures, the bokeh would distract (at least me). When e.g. there is background not too far away from a bird, it looks very busy.

But also I wasn't aware of the high quality of Tamron mirror lenses, thanks for the advice.

Still, I haven't totally given up on the Tokina 400/5.6 AT-X SD, but somehow can't find anything useful about that one anywhere, it seems most folks are talking about the non AT-X one which seems to must be avoided.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
memento wrote:
There's a small local "birdwatching paradise" at a former gravel pit that has been renaturalised and I thought I probably could try and get some pictures there. Here are pictures taken in that location (not from me !!) ....

http://www.fotoreiseberichte.de/koeln/koeln_hornpottweg.htm



Hey, I think I know that place but I never was on the lake there... That was in the mid-late 90's when I was living in Koeln but had a friend who was living close by Schlebusch U-Bahn station if I remember right. It was maybe slightly different at that time then now...

BTW Sigma zoom which I still have was purchased in Foto Gregor if that place still exist? They had at that point also used Zeiss and other lenses always on first window facing Gertruden strasse, next to church (forget the name) for really good price. I think at some point I will visit Koeln again.

I think that Nikon 400mm F5.6 I mention before will be good while that will give you 800mm on m4/3 and the lens is already sharp at 5.6 - No need to stop down but if yes then at F8 it will be really sharp, very usable to crop the image.

Did weihnachts markt started already there? I miss gluehwein... Laughing


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Soligor 6.3/400 ?

http://forum.mflenses.com/deer-and-soligor-6-3-400-and-tc-x1-4-t25819,highlight,%2Bsoligor.html


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
@ RAART

yes, that's the place! Foto Gregor still exists, that's where I bought my E-M5 Wink Almost any other photo shops here have closed in the last years due to growing internet sales, sadly. But Foto Gregor and Foto Lambertin (the one at the Cologne Dome) still are very successful. And Weihnachtsmarkt has already begun, next time I'll drink a Glühwein for you!

Thanks to all your advice, I've now narrowed down my list as follows –

1. I'm actively looking for one of these:
- Tokina AT-X SD 400/5.6 (if it's got different optics than the manual SD.... still the big question)
- Nikkor IF-ED 400/5.6
- cheap Soligor etc. 400/6.3

2. I'd also take one of these if a superb occasion should pop up:
- Sigma APO Macro 400/5.6 (to heavy)
- Tamron 350/5.6 (I don't really want yet another mirror lens)

I've taken the Sigma 400/5.6 Apo out of the list because it's just too risky, whereever I read about this lens lately, there is a story about fogged internal lens elements. Also I've seen a recent thread about the Novoflex 400/5.6 vs. a super-long Leica and I was not really convinced by the Novoflex results. So that one is also ruled out. Thomas


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you mention Leica : Telyt 400.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
none Smile good lens above 300mm unpayable, and not give much above 300mm.


Really? A quick eBay search for completed auctions reveals that for <500 EUR you can get a Nikkor 400/5.6 Ai and the slightly faster version is +/- 1000 EUR. This is well in same range with what quality Z glass sells for, and both are lenses that highly regarded nature photographers (for example Björn Rörslett) review as 4-4.5 star lenses (on a scale of 0 to 5).

400mm is significantly different perspective than 300mm, and you use superteles not only because of reach but also for flattening perspective and shallower depth of field. Many photographers never need anything longer than 180mm, but when you have used a 400mm lens you realise the potential it has on your images - there are so many shots you simply can't achieve at <200mm

It used to be so that when you bought a 400mm it was "for life" - you couldn't find buyers for it if you wanted to sell it, and you had to sell them for peanuts to get rid of them. Nowadays it's a different game, supertele lenses hold (and in many cases increase) their value over recent years, thanks to mirrorless crop sensors. Today's DSLRs also have very useable and fine high ISO 1600 to 3200, which is needed as the supertele focal length often forces you to use very fast shutter speeds.

Last edited by Esox lucius on Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think that it is so much choice in 400mm up to 400$...

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&LH_Complete=1&_nkw=nikon+400mm+5.6&LH_PrefLoc=2&_dmpt=Camera_Lenses&Focal%2520Length=Fixed%252FPrime&rt=nc


PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wow, it seems that these 400mm Nikkors are much more common in US than over here.

ebay Europe lists only one Nikkor 400/5.6 right now for €399, it looks terrific from the outside, but has a problem with lens coating on one of the inner surfaces, according to the description.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Olivier wrote:
Soligor 6.3/400 ?

http://forum.mflenses.com/deer-and-soligor-6-3-400-and-tc-x1-4-t25819,highlight,%2Bsoligor.html


I was just about to suggest this lens. I've used mine on a Pentax K10 with a solid tripod and got good results. It's a well made lens, in the big heavy all metal old school way of making lenses, but it's a good lens for the price, I think I paid £20 for mine, mint and boxed.



Last edited by Lloydy on Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tamron Nestar 400/6.9 is decent if you can find one!
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