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patrickh
 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 8551 Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: Sharpening |
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: Sharpening |
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patrickh wrote:
I notice many samples with the proud claim "no sharpening" and the assumption that this means the picture demonstrates how sharp the lens is. This is probably correct for film takers, but not for digital sensors. Virtually all sensors have anti-aliasing filters, and one of the by-products of this is to "blur" the picture. When a camera produces a jpeg, the internal software applies sharpening as part of the algorithm, and the strength is often controllable. For RAW, the user must compensate for the blurring by applying some degree of sharpening during processing (I deliberately did not use the phrase "PP"). Can we all agree to be rather more precise when using this claim of "no sharpening"? Bear in mind the sharpening does not create extra pixels or detail, it basically adjusts micro-contrast in a variety of ways, and can easily become just too much, with obvious artifacts. "No sharpening applied" is often very mis-leading by its implication that a good lens does not require sharpening, which is simply not true in the digital world.
patrickh _________________ DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Very true Patrick.
I think that when people writes "no sharpening" they really mean "no PP sharpening".
Which however does not say much anyway because usually digital cameras offer different levels of in-camera sharpening (if you take JPGs)
and RAW programs usually are not set to zero sharpening by default (if you take RAWs).
I think that if someone has the goal of testing lenses, he should adopt a standard and always go with it.
For instance, leaving his camera's sharpening or his RAW program's sharpening always at the same level.
This will not ensure results that are comparable with photos taken by other photographers, but at least will ensure that the
results obtain by that same photographer are comparable (until he changes camera, that is... ) _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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Nesster
 Joined: 24 Apr 2008 Posts: 5883 Location: NJ, USA
Expire: 2014-02-20
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Nesster wrote:
...or changes PP routine.
After resizing I always do a .2 pix ~6-10 radius (not critical) @ 180% regardless of original source.
With home scans, I usually do ~3 - 3.4 pix ~34-40 radius (not critical, though at least 10X the sharpening pixels) @ 76 or 80% (percentages picked due to high school and college graduation years). This low frequency sharpening helps my scanner
At least 'no sharpening' isn't like people who say 'cheap film'  _________________ -Jussi
Camera photos
Print Photographica
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poilu
 Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 10476 Location: Greece
Expire: 2019-08-29
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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poilu wrote:
| Patrick wrote: |
| "No sharpening applied" is often very mis-leading by its implication that a good lens does not require sharpening, which is simply not true in the digital world |
you cannot generalize with 'simply not true', each dslr is different
the Leica or the Fuji X-Pro1 doesn't have filter, Fuji have changed the layout of the sensor to suppress moire, Leica use optional filter
Canon & Nikon have models with no or weaker filter
it is possible to remove the filter on most sensor
new Canon DLO software is able to recover softness of the filter
| Canon wrote: |
| The EOS 5D Mark III comes with Canon Digital Photo Professional (DPP) v3.11 software to enable high-speed, high quality processing of RAW images. DPP v3.11 includes a new Digital Lens Optimizer (DLO) tool that is designed to improve image resolution. DLO imitates lens performance, with a series of mathematical functions replicating each stage of the journey of light through the optical path. Using this information DLO can correct a range of typical optical aberrations and loss of resolution caused by a camera’s low pass filter, by applying an inverse function to each shot to take the image nearer to how the scene appears to the naked eye. This creates detailed, high-quality images with manageable file sizes, providing photographers with maximum image quality and greater flexibility |
_________________ T* |
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patrickh
 Joined: 23 Aug 2007 Posts: 8551 Location: Oregon
Expire: 2011-11-18
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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 Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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patrickh wrote:
poilu
You are correct, I should have been less strident and said "often" rather than my absolute statement. I suspect that 90% or more of the digital cameras used in this forum have some form of anti-aliasing. I stand by my cry to be much more cautious about using the "no sharpening" claim to enhance a lens' claimed sharpness though.
patrickh _________________ DSLR: Nikon D300 Nikon D200 Nex 5N
MF Zooms: Kiron 28-85/3.5, 28-105/3.2, 75-150/3.5, Nikkor 50-135/3.5 AIS // MF Primes: Nikkor 20/4 AI, 24/2 AI, 28/2 AI, 28/2.8 AIS, 28/3.5 AI, 35/1.4 AIS, 35/2 AIS, 35/2.8 PC, 45/2.8 P, 50/1.4 AIS, 50/1.8 AIS, 50/2 AI, 55/2.8 AIS micro, 55/3.5 AI micro, 85/2 AI, 100/2,8 E, 105/1,8 AIS, 105/2,5 AIS, 135/2 AIS, 135/2.8 AIS, 200/4 AI, 200/4 AIS micro, 300/4.5 AI, 300/4.5 AI ED, Arsat 50/1.4, Kiron 28/2, Vivitar 28/2.5, Panagor 135/2.8, Tamron 28/2.5, Tamron 90/2.5 macro, Vivitar 90/2.5 macro (Tokina) Voigtlander 90/3.5 Vivitar 105/2.5 macro (Kiron) Kaleinar 100/2.8 AI Tamron 135/2.5, Vivitar 135/2.8CF, 200/3.5, Tokina 400/5,6
M42: Vivitar 28/2.5, Tamron 28/2.5, Formula5 28/2.8, Mamiya 28/2.8, Pentacon 29/2.8, Flektogon 35/2.4, Flektogon 35/2.8, Takumar 35/3.5, Curtagon 35/4, Takumar 50/1.4, Volna-6 50/2.8 macro, Mamiya 50/1.4, CZJ Pancolar 50/1,8, Oreston 50/1.8, Takumar 50/2, Industar 50/3.5, Sears 55/1.4, Helios 58/2, Jupiter 85/2, Helios 85/1.5, Takumar 105/2.8, Steinheil macro 105/4.5, Tamron 135/2.5, Jupiter 135/4, CZ 135/4, Steinheil Culminar 135/4,5, Jupiter 135/3.5, Takumar 135/3.5, Tair 135/2.8, Pentacon 135/2.8, CZ 135/2.8, Taika 135/3.5, Takumar 150/4, Jupiter 200/4, Takumar 200/4
Exakta: Topcon 100/2.8(M42), 35/2.8, 58/1.8, 135/2.8, 135/2.8 (M42), Kyoei Acall 135/3.5
C/Y: Yashica 28/2.8, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, Zeiss Planar 50/1.4, Distagon 25/2.8
Hexanon: 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 40/1.8, 50/1.7, 52/1.8, 135/3.2, 135/3.5, 35-70/3.5, 200/3.5
P6 : Mir 38 65/3.5, Biometar 80/2.8, Kaleinar 150/2.8, Sonnar 180/2.8
Minolta SR: 28/2.8, 28/3.5, 35/2.8, 45/2, 50/2, 58/1.4, 50/1.7, 135/2.8, 200/3.5
RF: Industar 53/2.8, Jupiter 8 50/2
Enlarg: Rodagon 50/5,6, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, Vario 44-52/4, 150/5.6 180/5.6 El Nikkor 50/2,8,63/2.8,75/4, 80/5,6, 105/5.6, 135/5.6 Schneider 60/5.6, 80/5.6, 80/4S,100/5.6S,105/5.6,135/5.6, 135/5.6S, 150/5.6S, Leica 95/4 |
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martinsmith99
 Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 7000 Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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 Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:09 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
I don't like that claim and so I don't make any comments on sharpening. I have a default value set in ACR that I use 99% of the time and use high pass filter to sharpen sometimes. _________________ Casual attendance these days |
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