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blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Bremen, Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:06 am Post subject: Overview 55mm f1.2 lenses? |
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blende8 wrote:
A friend asked me if I know anything about the 55/1.2 lenses always popping up on ebay. He wants one.
I don't know much about this topic, but even though I think that f1.4 is enough for anybody, I thought that if there is any expert on these lenses, it must be here.
So I ask:
1. What different ones are out there?
I noticed different number of aperture blades and different filter sizes already.
2. Are there any lens diagrams for these lenses online?
3. What to stay away from?
I once had a so called "Color Reflex MC Auto" and that was bad, both mechanically and optically.
Or possibly there is some overview thread already somewhere? _________________ Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:27 am Post subject: Re: Overview 55mm f1.2 lenses? |
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LucisPictor wrote:
blende8 wrote: |
A friend asked me if I know anything about the 55/1.2 lenses always popping up on ebay. He wants one.
I don't know much about this topic, but even though I think that f1.4 is enough for anybody, I thought that if there is any expert on these lenses, it must be here.
So I ask:
1. What different ones are out there?
I noticed different number of aperture blades and different filter sizes already.
2. Are there any lens diagrams for these lenses online?
3. What to stay away from?
I once had a so called "Color Reflex MC Auto" and that was bad, both mechanically and optically.
Or possibly there is some overview thread already somewhere? |
Generally, the really good or the famous ones are extremely expensive!
The Noct-Nikkor is a legend and you have to pay for the name.
Meanwhile the Rokkor 1.2/58 also has turned into a "board legend" and thus it got more and more expensive, esp. after they found out how to convert it to EOS mount.
You sometime can find non-OEM products which can be found for a good price. They might not be as good as the top brands, but in order to play around with f/1.2 they are good enough.
I have a good chance to get two 1.2/55 lenses soon. And since I already have one (Nikkor), I might sell them again. Watch the marketplace end of next week. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Bremen, Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Overview 55mm f1.2 lenses? |
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blende8 wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
You sometime can find non-OEM products which can be found for a good price. They might not be as good as the top brands, but in order to play around with f/1.2 they are good enough. |
Thanks! These are the ones I meant to discuss.
After some search on a Pentax forum I have found that
Cosina, Revuenon, Rikenon and Vivitar are all the same
and very probably by the same manufactorer (Cosina?).
The main differences to the Color Reflex/Porst ones:
Color Reflex / Cosina
filter thread: 55 / 58
aperture blades: 8 / 9 _________________ Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ...
Last edited by blende8 on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
If I remember correctly there was a first version designed by Tomioka and a second version designed by Cosina.
This could explain differences like the front glass size and the number of elements. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
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Last edited by Orio on Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 Posts: 2495 Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
There are at least two Porst 55/1.2 lenses for K-mount. One is based on the old Tomiokas 55/1.2 desing (manufactured probably by Cosina) and the other one is based likely on Fuji design. Maybe there are more models...
None of those 55/1.2 lenses is based on 6 elements. That's just an urban legend which arised from the letter marking on manufacturers ring (the letter sometimes adequate to the number of elements, sometimes it to the number of optical groups, sometimes to then number of air-glass surfaces...). _________________ (almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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Arkku
Joined: 28 Feb 2007 Posts: 1416 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Arkku wrote:
Minolta has at various versions of 58mm f/1.2 (best bokeh, reputedly not as sharp in the edges as 50mm, radioactive) and 50mm f/1.2. The 58mm f/1.2 is worthy of its reputation.
In Canon FL there are 58mm f/1.2 (radioactive) and 55mm f/1.2 (not radioactive). I don't have experience with the 58mm but the 55mm f/1.2 is very nice. Bokeh a bit unpredictable but it has interesting character.
In Canon FD I think there are several different 50mm and 55mm f/1.2 lenses. I don't have experience with any of them.
Nikon, too, has various 50mm, 55mm, and 58mm f/1.2 Nikkors. The most famous, as mentioned earlier, is the 58mm f/1.2 Noct-Nikkor but it's ridiculously expensive. (Some sellers may try to sell other f/1.2 Nikkors as the Noct-Nikkor but the actual lens has the 'Noct” written on it.)
In Olympus OM there are 50mm and 55mm f/1.2 Zuikos. The 50mm is reportedly sharper but I have no experience with either.
Edit: Oh, the ones I have, Rokkor-PG 58mm f/1.2 and Canon FL 55mm f/1.2 both have 8 aperture blades. Optical formulas:
Canon FL 55mm f/1.2
Minolta MC Rokkor-PG 58mm f/1.2
Apparently I also have the Canon FL 58mm f/1.2 diagram around:
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Overview 55mm f1.2 lenses? |
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LucisPictor wrote:
blende8 wrote: |
I once had a so called "Color Reflex MC Auto" and that was bad, both mechanically and optically.
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Was that a "Porst" because that would really surprise me. Perhaps you had a bad copy!
In a German board there was a long thread about a Porst 1.2/55 and there were many images shown that prove that this is a very good lens!
These images here are also some kind of evidence for the rather high quality of the Porst lens:
http://www.mflenses.com/gallery/v/japenese/othermaker/ports_55mm_f1_2/
And even if such a lens is not as brilliant as a 1.2 Zuiko or Nikkor, what would you rather do if you want to try out f/1.2? Spend €350,- for a very good lens or €120,- for a good one that comes pretty close?
BTW, I have found that:
"PORST COLOR REFLEX MC AUTO 1.2/55mm (PK mount)
This lens happens to be optically identical to Yashica ML 55/1.2 lens, though not sure about coatings.
Probably Cosina made this lens base on Tomioka's optical design same as Yashica ML 55/1.2.
(Mr. K told us a small group of "normal lens afectionards" that at the beginning Cosina sub-contracted to produce PORST/CHINON 1.2/55 based of Tomioka design, at the later stage Cosina designed 1.2/55 by themselves and made bunch of this fast lens under different brand names.)" _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de
Last edited by LucisPictor on Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:19 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Bremen, Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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blende8 wrote:
no-X wrote: |
None of those 55/1.2 lenses is based on 6 elements. That's just an urban legend which arised from the letter marking on manufacturers ring (the letter sometimes adequate to the number of elements, sometimes it to the number of optical groups, sometimes to then number of air-glass surfaces...). |
Thanks! I found that strange, too.
I have corrected my post above. _________________ Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
no-X wrote: |
There are at least two Porst 55/1.2 lenses for K-mount. One is based on the old Tomiokas 55/1.2 desing (manufactured probably by Cosina) and the other one is based likely on Fuji design. Maybe there are more models...
None of those 55/1.2 lenses is based on 6 elements. That's just an urban legend which arised from the letter marking on manufacturers ring (the letter sometimes adequate to the number of elements, sometimes it to the number of optical groups, sometimes to then number of air-glass surfaces...). |
So, this is wrong?
http://yashica.org/243-0-ML+55mm+112.html
_________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Bremen, Germany
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Overview 55mm f1.2 lenses? |
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blende8 wrote:
LucisPictor wrote: |
blende8 wrote: |
I once had a so called "Color Reflex MC Auto" and that was bad, both mechanically and optically.
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Was that a "Porst" because that would really surprise me. Perhaps you had a bad copy! |
Yes, perhaps I had a bad copy.
The focussing ring did not feel very smooth, as if a grain of sand was in it. A bit cheapo.
But that has 7 elements, 6 groups. _________________ Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
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no-X
Joined: 19 Jul 2008 Posts: 2495 Location: Budejky, Czech Republic
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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no-X wrote:
Yes, these lenses has at least 7 elements.
There was a long discussion about 55/1.2 and 6 elements here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/so-i-got-this-from-a-2nd-hand-site-porst-55-1-2-t22842.html
and member Gabriel opened his lens and proved, that the "6-elements theory" is wrong - here:
http://forum.mflenses.com/tomioka-zeiss-mamiya-and-55-1-4-design-t22661,start,15.html
I'm 99% sure, that the old Cosina made Porst 55/1.2 is based on the old Tomiokas 55/1.2 design. Tomioka had a better optical design at the time, so it's possible, that they licenced or sold their older designs to Cosina, which built many lenses on them (I think the same could be true for the Tomioka 55/1.4 design, which was later adopted by many Japanese brands). _________________ (almost) complete list of Helios lenses |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
I had 4 of them Nikkor, Pentax, Konica and Porst. I like first three, Porst was many step behind them. I still have Konica and Pentax , I sold only Nikon because I can't afford to keep all. In my opinion not really 1.2 or 1.4 is interesting, this lenses are flagship of manufacturer so they quality is usually better than 1.4 cheaper sisters. Quality difference is also very subjective , so easy to decide what should you do. If you can afford it buy a higher priced one and test by your self. If you think this lens not give you more than 1.4 version sell it. Very easy to sell them, due rarity and curious people. I rare shoot in low light environment so don't need me really, but nice to have it _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
Ah, OK. I was thinking it was about groups, confusing the terms. Well... anyway.
These non-OEM lenses are not too bad, really.
They do not show the same performance as the OEM ones, right, but you get them for 1/3 of the price!
So, perhaps it's worth a try. As I said, I have seen pictures with a PORST that really impressed me. _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de
Last edited by LucisPictor on Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ivo
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Maastricht
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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Ivo wrote:
I've used the Porst for a while but hardly use it nowadays. Mainly for the bokeh which is not that nice wide-open. Due to it's size compared to the slightly slower 50mm's I have I only used it during occasions where I was planning to use it wide-open (like concerts). At 1.2 the depth-of-field is a bit short for concertwork. (Might be great for portraits.) |
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
I have quickly compared Porst 1.2/55 and Pentax A 1.2/50. I wanted to know if the Pentax is so much better (I had the opportunity to buy it for very reasonable price). But I don't think so.
Sharpness wide open is almost the same. Pentax has slightly more contrast, Porst seems shlightly sharper in center, with lover CAs.
They are very close in bokeh rendering in my eyes. Both can produce very distracting or very smooth bokeh, depends on background and distance from main subject to background (as with other lenses).
The only thing I don't like about Porst is slight brown cast. Pentax offers better and colder colors. But not worth of 4x price for me.
If you want to try f1.2 at "cheap", go for Porst. But beware, the DOF @f1.2 is razor thin... most conclusions about unsharpness come from badly focused pictures... most parts of faces in close portraits are just out of focus plane.
And try to stop it down, it gains lot of contrast at f2 and onwards.
Pentax-A 1.2/50 @ f1.2
Porst Color Reflex 1.2/55 @ f1.2 sorry, this shot is missfocused, but it´s not so important in this bokeh comparison
On the other side, Porst can produce very pleasing bokeh @ f1.2 too
And with some postprocessing, lovely results (at least to my eyes )
Porst Color Reflex 1.2/55 @ f1.2 this is not any "studio" shot, just quick portrait at party in dim light.
_________________ .: APO-Maniac :. |
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WolverineX
Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Posts: 1693 Location: Zagreb , Croatia , Europe
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Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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WolverineX wrote:
i have Olympus OM 55mm 1.2, in daylight wide open it is prone to overexpose on my dSLR, so you have to correct exposure, but in dim lit situations it gives you results as if the lighting is regular. stopped down in daylight it gives sharp results
_________________ my tools:Oly E-M5 + 45mm/1.8 + Oly E-520 + 12-60 + 14-42 + 70-300 + Sigma 105mm + FL-50R + EC20 + SRF-11 ring flash
http://forum.mflenses.com/wolverinex-testing-my-lenses-series-link-list-t39524.html |
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LucisPictor
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 Posts: 17633 Location: Oberhessen, Germany / Maidstone ('95-'96)
Expire: 2013-12-03
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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LucisPictor wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
I have quickly compared Porst 1.2/55 and Pentax A 1.2/50. ... |
Thanks. This shows what I have always said. The difference is not that big. The price difference is, though! _________________ Personal forum activity on pause every now and again (due to job obligations)!
Carsten, former Moderator
Things ON SALE
Carsten = "KAPCTEH" = "Karusutenu" | T-shirt?.........................My photos from Emilia: http://www.schouler.net/emilia/emilia2011.html
My gear: http://retrocameracs.wordpress.com/ausrustung/
Old list: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=65 (Not up-to-date, sorry!) | http://www.lucispictor.de | http://www.alensaweek.wordpress.com |
http://www.retrocamera.de |
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blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Bremen, Germany
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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blende8 wrote:
And try focussing in liveview with the loupe.
It might be a revelation. _________________ Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
blende8 wrote: |
And try focussing in liveview with the loupe.
It might be a revelation. |
I prefer split screen. When I do different comparison of my lenses, I often try to confirm focus point with LiveView. Most of the time, I do better with optical viewfinder than with LiveView.....maybe due to crappy LiveView implementation in GX20/K20D. _________________ .: APO-Maniac :. |
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Orio
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 29545 Location: West Emilia
Expire: 2012-12-04
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Orio wrote:
Brunner,
I definitely want to go to your parties
Great samples, thanks for sharing them. _________________ Orio, Administrator
T*
NE CEDE MALIS AUDENTIOR ITO
Ferrania film is reborn! http://www.filmferrania.it/
Support the Ornano film chemicals company and help them survive!
http://forum.mflenses.com/ornano-chemical-products-t55525.html |
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blende8
Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 260 Location: Bremen, Germany
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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blende8 wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
I prefer split screen. |
Split screen only works well if you have lenses without focus shift.
Most very fast lenses have some focus shift.
In general I also prefer focussing via viewfinder if possible. _________________ Best wishes, Wieland
K-1, K-5IIs
Pentax, mysterium quod absconditum fuit ... |
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Ivo
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Maastricht
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ivo wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
blende8 wrote: |
And try focussing in liveview with the loupe.
It might be a revelation. |
I prefer split screen. When I do different comparison of my lenses, I often try to confirm focus point with LiveView. Most of the time, I do better with optical viewfinder than with LiveView.....maybe due to crappy LiveView implementation in GX20/K20D. |
It might be another problem. It's much harder to keep your camera stable when you're using liveview compared to using the viewfinder. So part of the unsharp photos using liveview could be simple camera shake induced by yourself. |
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BRunner
Joined: 29 Jul 2009 Posts: 705 Location: Czech Republic
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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BRunner wrote:
Ivo wrote: |
It might be another problem. It's much harder to keep your camera stable when you're using liveview compared to using the viewfinder. So part of the unsharp photos using liveview could be simple camera shake induced by yourself. |
I use liveview exclusively on tripod. I don't even remember if I ever used liveview for normal shooting since I switched from compact camera to DSLR. _________________ .: APO-Maniac :. |
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Ivo
Joined: 07 Oct 2007 Posts: 109 Location: Maastricht
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Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ivo wrote:
BRunner wrote: |
Ivo wrote: |
It might be another problem. It's much harder to keep your camera stable when you're using liveview compared to using the viewfinder. So part of the unsharp photos using liveview could be simple camera shake induced by yourself. |
I use liveview exclusively on tripod. I don't even remember if I ever used liveview for normal shooting since I switched from compact camera to DSLR. |
Indeed, that rules out the camera-shake. Liveview for me is a non-option, I don't like it. So I can't comment on the liveview quality of the K20D. |
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martinsmith99
Joined: 31 Aug 2008 Posts: 6950 Location: S Glos, UK
Expire: 2013-11-18
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Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: |
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martinsmith99 wrote:
The porst looks good in the last pic. Difficult to judge its sharpness though on screen. Is it usable wide open for 8x12 prints? _________________ Casual attendance these days |
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