ricoh gxr adds m mount module: opinions sought

[rbelyell]

well the oft overlooked mirrorless, compact and qualitatively well-reviewed ricoh gxr modular system may no longer be easily overlooked. they plan to release an m mount/sensor module in september, see announcement and preview at dp review:

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/ricohgxrmounta12/

it would be great to hear from members who have experience with the gxr. it would also be good to get members thoughts generally on this new addition and the potential future of this system.

for me this takes a kind of confusingly manufactured/marketed system and vaults it into a less confusing, maybe stroke of genius?, type of product. many questions relating to IQ need to be answered, including if the lack of AA filter produces the same problems rendering blacks/magentas as the m8. but how cool would it be to have a $650 13mp epson rd 1 with present day software updates?! i read ricoh also plans a m4/3 module, which if true, may make this system a olly/panny/sony killer, as well as a potential m8 killer...

so, experiences? thoughts?

[LucisPictor]

The GXR was uninteresting for me, because it is much too expensive compared to a NEX for example.

The M-mount solution might be a good move by Ricoh, because they might be able to convince some Leica M user who have several M-lenses but do not feel like paying €5500,- for a new M9 or €2000,- for a used M8.

It depends how good the sensor will be and how well the GXR will work with M-lenses, of course.

"User-defined distortion, vignetting and corner color correction, recordable for multiple lenses..."

That's a nice touch!

[kuuan]

The GXR is a high quality built camera with Ricoh typical great handling and controls, e.g two wheels. Ricoh GXR + M module 'should' work better with M lenses than the NEX because it's sensor is optimized for M lenses. Obviously we have to wait to know for certain

[ludoo]

The different focusing modes are also well though out: you can combine 3 levels of magnifcation (either full frame or picture in picture) with two "focus peaking" modes. As kuuan wote above, it looks like a typical well designed, well engineered Ricoh product, thought by photographers for photographers.

I'm sure it will handle great, a pity they waited a bit too much to release it, as the NEX-7 with more megapixels and great evf will appeal to many potential GXR users.

[rbelyell]

yeah, they are late to the game. has anyone actually used this thing, or know anyone whose used it?

btw, gxr also has optional evf. i also think lack of AA filter will increase detail over other competitors, but am concerned it will have the same problems of M8, rendering blacks etc. if ricoh figured out how to overcome those issues, IQ may be too good to ignore...

[poilu]

when they will rename it pentax many believer will buy it

[kuuan]

[kuuan]

a mirrorless camera with Leica M mount and a APS-C sensor optimized for M mount lenses without AA filter, with great UI, handling and noiseless operation...and there is little talking about this camera here

here a comparison GXR+M module / NEX5N:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1013&thread=39677054
some thoughts:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1013&thread=39729649

[Orio]

Remiving AA filter from the camera gives a clear sharpness advantage, and I can witness this everyday
when I use the 5D Mark II and the M9 on the same location.
Of course in some occasions moiré can be annoying, but most of the time you don't even notice it.
One would wonder why Canon hasn't thought of implementing a switchable AA filter in their top-of-the-line
cameras; meaning an AA filter that you can turn on and off depending on the shooting situations.
But the reality is that Canon keeps implementing the AA filter because:

- they want to avoid endless complaints and camera returns from ignorant users;

- a switchable AA filter is probably too costly and difficult to implement in mass production (it also probably
would be too tricky also in elite productions such as Leica);

- their own lenses, for most parts (with notable exceptions, but still...), kind of suck, or simply plain suck
if compared to their price tag: so there is not enough advantage from the part of the lenses over the sensor
to jsutify all the hassles that would derive from giving up the AA filter

In other words, removing AA filter when 80% of Canon DSLR users use the cheapest lenses of their line (or the
Tamron-Sigma 3rd parties), which would not benefit from an increase of sensor sharpness because they can
not go perform well enough, is something that makes little sense commercially. It would only benefit the MFL users
like us, who mount on the Canon some of the best lenses ever made for SLR.
But we are not a strategic commercial asset for Canon for sure

[Karhallarn]

There are the first reviews on the GXR M-Mount!

Those look very promising!

Stevehuff tested it against the NEX7 and the guys from digitalrev did ones again a great video tour!

[Sevo]

[kuuan]

Considering that Canon sells more cameras to professionals than any other maker a rather remarkable analysis Orio. Canon may be well advised to look into offering a top pro model that does without AA filters then. But I am not really concerned here about why Canon doesn't offer a comparable camera.

Your analysis however does show just how special the Ricoh GXR A12, the camera we are talking about here, actually is: It does offer the very rare, most likely 'clear sharpness advantage', as you put it, of not using an AA filter, is optimized for Leica M lenses, handles very well, has great IU. In short it obviously is a 'photographer's camera' which aims at highest IQ. This camera is a compelling choice for anyone who wants exceptional IQ in a small, well handling package but not forge out the money for a Leica M9.

However the GXR seems to get outshined by NEX. Me too, I have a NEX coming, look forward to 'shooting' from the lap using the tiltable, high resolution LCD. The resolution of the optional / integrated viewfinders of the latest NEXes is also higher than that of the EVF for the GXR. I will enjoy the Sony but in the end the Ricoh may have significantly superior IQ and be the more pleasant camera in use. I may switch in the future.

Hopefully more people become aware of the exceptional Ricoh GXR A12, buy it, report about it's use and share photos taken with it

[Karhallarn]

The NEX 7 might be an outstanding camera for manual use but if you look at the review Steve Huff did, the NEX7 schows purple edges with wide angle Lenses from voigtländer and Leica, whereas the GXR doesn't show anything like this! In fact he says, that the GXR is perfectly made for Leica lenses and the Hard and Software seem to be done pretty awesome!

[Orio]

[rbelyell]

plus money for evf! but yes, i agree, this is a very underrated option for RF afficianados.

[caerwall]

I now have three GXR bodies and A12 mounts. I also have a scad of lenses from creaking Russian M42 mount, via FD, PK, LTM to LM lenses. They are a barrel of fun and the only thing stopping them being used more professionally is the capture burst rate imho.

But then I have come to like manual focus, Ricoh's implementation of contrast peaking focus assist, and the way it all hangs together.

But then I only read the label nonsense on bottles of red wine after the bottle is empty when wondering who bottled that last nice drop.

So I can't talk technical detail on here on whether this camera performs to the nth degree, but I sure can have some fun before check the labels. Isn't enjoying the gear you have in your hand most of the fun of photography?

Tom

[ludoo]

[rbelyell]

yes i am also very seriously thinking about buying one as well, if i can find a good priced used kit. i'm happy with my OMD, but i think i should be happier. i am unnaturally focused on a camera optimized for my new RF lens collection that has no AA filter...i just think the images will be crisper throughout.
tony

[ramcewan]

as an enthusiast camera it has a place.

as a competitor to the NEX, Nikon, Samsung and the m43 cameras it isn't even close....

you mean I have to buy a new sensor/lens combo every time I want to change lenses? my camera bag is getting heavy with all these "units" compared to a body and some lenses...


not saying it wouldn't make an excellent dedicated mirrorless camera for manual focus legacy lenses, just saying most people buy mirror-less cameras to use with autofocus lenses and a few manual focus lenses they may already have.

I'd also say that a NEX body makes an excellent dedicated mirrorless camera for manual focus legacy lenses and people will be hard pressed to justify going to the ricoh for more money and less MP. Yes I know the AA filter is a big deal for purist but most people will have already bought a camera before they understand the AA filter.

[rbelyell]

no you are mistaken you dont have to change sensors with each lens. there are now many adapters that fit m42, c/y, eos, dkl, konica ar etc to M mount. so all you need is the base camera plus the M mount sensor, and the correct adapter. works like any other mirrorless does with the M sensor on board.

as for AA filter, i dont consider myself a purist. if i was i'd still be shooting my FF 5d. what i consider myself is someone who likes sharp, crisp, deep images. now i cannot speak fully from personal experience, but when i compare my very nice m4/3 photos, and even my better than very nice x100 photos, to those taken with the ricoh or other AA-less cams, they do not measure up, something is lacking in the micro resolution that is apparent in the photo as a whole and extremely visible when pixel peeping, which i do unapologetically. again, i would have to verify these conclusions personally before being definitive about them, but what ive seen second hand compared to my first hand results are frankly startling.
tony

[ramcewan]

[rbelyell]

yeah, as an AF camera system i dont think i would consider ricoh, though i am given to understand their primes are pretty good. truth is i typically have only 1-2 af lenses for any system ive used anyway.
tony

[caerwall]

Every camera system has its own adherents otherwise the system would not continue to exist.

For those that see the Ricoh GXR system as something "odd" than I must agree. However there is some sort of sense in it's oddness. I am not into the GXR lens/modules but those that have their 28mm and 50mm effective primes seem pretty happy with the results. Swapping modules is not a big deal and they do not take up much space. Moreover the GXR camera back behaves the same way no matter what module is mounted. Therefore it is best seen as "separate cameras" rather than "body plus lens". But the true claim to fame is the A12 LM mount whch is a dedicated manual only mount for LM lenses and a "separate camera that takes manual lenses only". It has a sensor optimised for these lenses. So here we have a modern digital "camera" that is set to provide everything you might need specifically for RF lenses and not something that is an afterthought to keep the punters amused much like you can do with the NEX, M4/3 and even the NX.

But of course it is every man to his own brand of poison really.

And of course adapters from other mounts to LM, whilst always possible were not of a great deal of use on Leica bodies and therefore rare. With the GXR A12 mount about they have become commonplace and very effective.

Therefore in the Ricoh GXR those with any manual lenses, be they RF or slr derived, have the opportunity to seriously use them on a digital camera dedicated specially built and optimised to take replaceable manual lenses. Tell me if I am wrong but surely this must stand in the place of the now revered RD1? Another revered camera regarded odd in its day.

Therefore I urge you not to investigate what the Ricoh GXR in A12 mount is all about unless you are the adventurous type who wishes to investigate something designed to become a classic. I do hope that the GXR will not be discontinued like the RD1.

Ricoh also takes the Sony contrast peaking focus detect to new heights. Not only does it have a similar style to Sony's without the colour but also it has another "mode 2" which it a "whole outline" style - a sort of "stick figures". This makes manual focusing very quick indeed and by use of screen magnification as precise as you wish to make it. It also can show precise dof achieved. Mode 2 seems to be the general preference but I also like "mode 1" which is more delicate and perhaps slower in use. For those that have not used focus peaking I note that you can see the point of focus right down to eyelashes and eye-iris'.

Very revolutionary and only on NEX and Ricoh (and lately and unsurprisingly the Pentax K-01). Just as much as we did not need IS on our cameras until every make offered it as "a standard fitting" then contrast peaking is just some odd facility until you have used it and realise just how good it is for manual focus assistance. However for those on auto-focus it might just be another odd piece of technology to be seriously considered from afar via a barge pole.

But this is MF Lenses Forum and we are all real photographers and hardly need such wimpy trivia of focus assistance ...

(grin)

To not get enthusiastic about the GXR-M and to compare it less favourably to the other EVIL-type cameras on offer is to have dismissed the concept without a real lot of thought and investigation.


Tom

[caerwall]

Tony

The GXR is more a keeper type system. It is easier to tell you what might be improved than what I like. What can be improved is having a built in evf back or another evf plug in unit that can be left on semi permanently if desired. It also needs a bigger shot to shot buffer for more professional use.

Other than that I am pretty happy. The present evf is quite good and is articulated 90 degrees upwards which means that you can peer downwards into it if desired. However even in its "at rest" position it still sits up precariously on top of the camera when fitted and my common sense tells me that it is disaster waiting to happen if left fitted when packed (anywhere). Of course bright light means the lcd becomes useless and you can't even guess framing other than zone-focus then point and hope without any means of effective framing.

The GXR body has been with us for some time now and has never been upgraded. However with the exception of my first groans I don't think that here is much really needed. This is the benefit of Ricoh, things that you buy are more long haul keepers.

So I have had a few dslr bodies and still use three, but they are all a bit different as Canon tends to shift the interface, buttons and firmware around as models evolve. They have a family style but I still have to check settings camera by camera and also ensure that I press the right buttons as they tend to "move". If I change settings on one then each has to be individually made the same. After a session with all of them in a particular light situation I have to remember to re-set them all to "neutral".

The GXR has a system not well described in the manual but which I have worked out that allows you to keep multiple cameras set up identically. So if you make some changes to your regular set up then in a matter of a minute you can set any other units you have to operate identically. So basically you have a photographers dream set. More than one camera unit and all set up exactly the same and also with buttons in identical positions. And the interface is good and very well thought out. I don't need to know which GXR body I am currently using as they are all identical.

So I accidentally became a lens collector and now have quite a number of legacy manual lenses in various mount formats - these include LTM/LM and also FD, PK and M42.

Therefore I find it very handy to have multiple camera units to save changing lens and adapter. I am happy with my GXR backs they aback alone. However the M mount module alone is not overly cheap - I think that Ricoh can sell all they make - it is quietly popular, it is also most economically bought in kit form but not such a bargain as the *10 module kits..

There is a rarely used but known concept of treating each GXR and mount module as a "separate camera" and not "camera body plus lenses". As the body/mount combinations are quite compact this is quite feasible compared to similar dslr kit.

Tom

[ramcewan]