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Lens for shooting live bees!!!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Lens for shooting live bees!!! Reply with quote
Hi all. I'm thinking of buying yet another lens, this one for macro shots of live bees and the wax cells on the wooden brood frames in my hive. I found this very useful info on another thread, thank you very much Arninetyes! ...
Arninetyes wrote:
If an inanimate subject, a 50mm macro is just fine, but the focusing distance is much too close for shy subjects, especially those that bite or sting. In that case, you'd want as much distance as possible between you and the subject when shooting macro: you'd need a 100mm minimum, longer would be better.

I intend to set up the camera on a tripod with remote release and focus by moving the subject rather than adjusting the lens, using live view on the DSLR. That way I can keep my hands free to hold the frame. I take the point about the longer FL but I'll be wearing the beesuit and veil, so maybe that's not so vital. Wat do you think?

Arninetyes goes on to recommend a Nikkor lens, but I can't use those myself. I need preferably M42 so I can use it on all my cameras. I'd like as much detail as I get - 1:1 or even more if possible.

What would you recommend please? I'd love to hear about anyone's experiences of photographing honeybees Smile


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd go for a long lens with an extension tube. I have a Tair-3C 300mm that is very very good, it only focuses to 3.5m but if you add an M42 extension tube on the back you can reduce this to a much more workable distance, and it will give you a ton of magnification.

The Tair-3C is pretty common secondhand, I paid under 40ukp for mine.

Or you could try a 135mm lens on an extension tube, that would be cheaper as 135mm lenses are a dime a dozen and most of them are pretty good.

A 50mm Macro lens would work but so would a normal 50mm lens on a short extension tube, there are so many good but cheap 50s out there.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
For your purpose, you don't need to buy a real macro lens. Use your best tele lens in the 85-135mm range and add one (or more) extension tube to be able to get as close as necessary.
Use a tripod, prefocus, and use cable remote shutter control. With prefocus you will not even need to look in the view finder. Just set the camera and then monitor the scene directly: when the bees are in your prefocused area, click shutter, when they come towards you, run as fast as you can! Laughing


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another option is to use a Tamron SP or Adaptall-2 zoom lens. Almost all of them have a macro mode Smile


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Lens for shooting live bees!!! Reply with quote
peterqd wrote:
Arninetyes goes on to recommend a Nikkor lens, but I can't use those myself. I need preferably M42 so I can use it on all my cameras. I'd like as much detail as I get - 1:1 or even more if possible.

What would you recommend please? I'd love to hear about anyone's experiences of photographing honeybees Smile


maybe try tamron 90mm/2.5 coupled with matching tamron flat field 2x teleconverter(01F that goes inbetween the lens and adaptall adapter)? you can use it with m42 adaptall adapter

peterqd wrote:
I intend to set up the camera on a tripod with remote release and focus by moving the subject rather than adjusting the lens, using live view on the DSLR. That way I can keep my hands free to hold the frame. I take the point about the longer FL but I'll be wearing the beesuit and veil, so maybe that's not so vital. Wat do you think?


wouldn't it, you moving the subject (it being an insect) , scare off the subject?


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Peter,

I would recommend you the Tamron SP Adaptall-2 90mm f/2.5. It uses to come with its own extension tube which allows for 1:1 macro. It's a nice lens and not too expensive.

Regards.
Jes.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jesito wrote:
Hi Peter,

I would recommend you the Tamron SP Adaptall-2 90mm f/2.5. It uses to come with its own extension tube which allows for 1:1 macro. It's a nice lens and not too expensive.

Regards.
Jes.

Hi Peter. Very Happy
+1 with Jes and Wolve.

or APO Lanthar 3.5/90mm, but it's more expensive.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
here are samples from the tamron 90mm that i just took , just to show magnification with 2x tamron flat field teleconverter and with matching macro tube for tamron 90mm

handheld shots,no postprocessing just resize so i could upload it through drag and drop feature of the forum

1. just the lens


2. lens + 2x flat field teleconverter


3. lens + matching tamron macro tube


4. lens + 2x flat field teleconverter + matching tamron macro tube


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes for the Tamron lenses.

(The 90mm is THE lens to have).

If you need more distance, then go for a 200mm. Try the 52A : Direct macro ratio 1:2. This great lens is underprieced : All the glances are turned on the Vivitar, or expensive Nikkor and Canon FD primes.

For even more distance, then you need a 300mm : The 54B is a great choice again. Much better than a Tair-3 with an extender for your arms ! Direct macro ratio 1:3, and...610g only Wink
The IQ as a tele is sometimes not perfect (stange lens), but always perfect for macro shots.

http://www.adaptall-2.org/lenses/52A.html
http://www.adaptall-2.org/lenses/54B.html


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, thanks all very much for the help. The Tamron 90mm looks favourite. I already have the 01F 2x converter so I think I'll take Graham's suggestion first and see what I can achieve with one of the AD2 zooms and extension tubes.

Here's a pic I found of a frame. At this time of year the bees are completely focussed on their work on the cells, I'm sure they wouldn't take any notice of a lens even just 50mm away from them. And it often takes several hard shakes to get them to fall off back into the hive. So distance isn't a problem really, but I'll try using a 135 or 85/90 lens with extension tubes and see what I can achieve.


Orio, Smile. I'll be wearing a suit and veil like this so there's no need to run. It's not easy to see through a viewfinder with the veil on! Smile

Wow Wolves! A single bee cell is about the size of the arrow on the Shift key, so you've almost done the testing for me. Thanks v much for the help.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
CAreful with the hands though! Laughing
I like what you do with bees. Bees are suffering a decimation of population unfortunately. Which is no good signal for the planet. Apparently though this year they are increasing in number - at least they seem increased here.
I try not to do any harm to them even though they want to nest in my walls, roof... especially the wasps and the carpenter bees. But this year I have noticed an increase of the regular bees also, which last year were almost absent.


PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm glad my suggestion was of some help! If you've never done much closeup work, you may find it addicting.

A 90 will work fine, especially if you're subjects are used to you. But, if you need to get farther from your subject, go with a longer lens than that. Adding an extension tube to a long lens will help some, but a good diopter lens works better on long lenses, while extension tubes work better on short lenses. An extension tube will work much better on a 90 than on a 300.

I've added a single pic I took of a bee on a flower. This was at only f/8; this close, I should have been at f/16 to increase the depth of field. As it is, only the bee is (almost) in focus.

Anyway, this was shot with a full-frame DSLR using an obsolete, MF Micro-Nikkor 200/4 Ais. The kicker is, because it was a 200mm, the end of the lens was a good 18 inches away from the subject. With a 90, you have to be much closer to get this shot, and with a 55mm, your lens is only 2 to 3 inches away from the bee. Bees don't like that. Using a 300 with a diopter, you'd be farther away than with the 200, probably closer to 2 feet from the bee.

Oh, this photo is uncropped, it's only been reduced in size to post here.



PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My father also kept bees for years, they are not wild at usually not care about you at all you can get very close for them I think any macro lens or non-macro with extension rings just fine what you can afford it. Problem only good light natural sunlight should best to capture them. I have no idea how they react for flash. Laughing My MUM did worry about always ,bees didn't like her. I did love them and they did never byte me ever.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was wondering about the DOF too, so useful info again Arninetyes! Thinking more about the distance for lens to subject, I've realised I'll be behind the camera looking at the LCD while holding the frame in front of the lens (and probably trying to fire the remote with my foot! Smile), so it has to be a short lens othewrwise my arms won't be long enough!

Great to hear that Attila! Apparently the bees can become more aggressive later in the year when they are trying to prevent their precious winter store of honey from being robbed by other bees or nasty beekeepers. I haven't got that far yet. Smile


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Another hint put your camera to a tripod and fix bee holder before camera, if you set focus on an empty frame and replace letter to an filled ones with bee by bee owner Wink it is safe and you can release shutter remotely from a dozen of shoots you will pick up some good ones. If you have an AF lens and camera support shoots when focus is clear and set... even more easier to get some good ones.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I used a Vivitar 100 mm 2.8 attached to two 2X Minolta TC's and was able to get almost the same level of magnification as WolverineX got from four feet away. On an APS-C camera the results blew me away even though I have never photographed bees with equipment like this. It is something I hope to try instead of my 10X stereo microscope sitting behind the toilet, when it finally does turn to Spring here. Good luck with your assignment!


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'd go with what the others said, 135-200mm lens with extension tube. Prefocus and go ahead. That way you'll have a lot of DOF.
Buy a 3-5 meter wire remote. It's cheap, around $10 on ebay. Don't forget to cover the view finder, otherwise you'll have some light hitting the sensor from that part too.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Himself wrote:
I'd go with what the others said, 135-200mm lens with extension tube. Prefocus and go ahead. That way you'll have a lot of DOF.
Don't forget to cover the view finder, otherwise you'll have some light hitting the sensor from that part too.

Good point, I'm sure I'd have forgotten that! Thanks. Smile


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you like the 50 mm or so perspective, the russian 3,5/50 is a nice lens for close up-macro pics, AFAIK.

Don't like so much the 50 perspective for close focus image. I prefer the 90/200 mm for that job.

A pre set lens can be adecuate to preview the DOF at the aperture to use, while you can focus at the taken aperture. And because they should have a smaller apertures like 22 or 32 (necessary to a good DOF)

At F/11 to F/32 the prefocus can be very useful. A macro ring flash too.

If you will do this job continued in the time, should think about purchase a great format equipment. It's more versatil IMHO.

Rino.


PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
estudleon wrote:
If you will do this job continued in the time, should think about purchase a great format equipment. It's more versatil IMHO.

Rino.


Hi Rino

I very much agree. For serious macro work there are many medium format macro lenses available relatively cheaply secondhand and a waist level finder with large ground glass screen is so much better for focusing on tiny macro subjects than a viewfinder.

One day I will buy a digital back and go medium format, only thing stopping me is cash to buy one!

When I was an art college student we all had to buy cameras for our second year work as there were nowhere near enough college-owned spotmatics to go round. Everyone bought typical 35mm SLRs secondhand like Oly OM10s, Pentax MEs and Praktica MTLs. I was going to buy a late model Praktica BCX with 28, 50 and 1235mm Penatcon lenses with it from a local shop then I spotted a Lubitel-166U for a fiver at a car boot sale and it had three rolls of Russian 120 film with it. Although the Lubi is almost a toy camera, I fell in love with the medium format negative and instead of buying that Praktica BCX I bought an old Agfa Super Isolette.

Anyways, I love medium format and second Rino's recommendation of going for a larger format for macro work...


PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spreading a bit of heresy pointing to the best macro bee shooter for me (he mostly lists equipment used):
http://dalantech.deviantart.com/art/Working-in-a-Wallflower-206186153

Don't forget to click on photo for full size.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pancolart wrote:
Spreading a bit of heresy pointing to the best macro bee shooter for me (he mostly lists equipment used):
http://dalantech.deviantart.com/art/Working-in-a-Wallflower-206186153

Don't forget to click on photo for full size.

Wow, they're fantastic pics, definitely something to aim at for me.

2.8x magnification??? I wouldn't know how to achieve (or measure) that with any of my lenses. But the number isn't important for me, it's the detail that I'm looking for. If the resolution is good enough I wouldn't rule out cropping.


PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Canon MPE-65mm is an awesome extreme macro lens !

Reviews here :

They say "Canon lists the focal length for this lens as 65mm. It is, but disregard this number for all intents and purposes. Think 1x to 5x magnification. Think 1:1 to 5:1. This lens starts where typical macro lenses stop"

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-MP-E-65mm-1-5x-Macro-Lens-Review.aspx

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/mp-e-65.shtml
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