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Tips for bokeh? De-focussing?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject: Tips for bokeh? De-focussing? Reply with quote
Is this the right thread to ask for some tips to achieve the perfect bokeh shot?

There is amazing photos in this thread: http://forum.mflenses.com/strange-bokeh-lenses-t30915,start,60.html

What things should be considered? What f-settings? What are the primary factors that make the effect happen?

One other question, is 'de-focusing' the same thing?

Any photos with explanations would be really appreciated, as I am fascinated by the effect, but it is still in the realms of black art to me.

Thanks

Mike Very Happy


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
'Perfect bokeh' is subjective imho, there can be as many answers as people! Wink (and lenses. Multiply those, you get the picture Wink)

Some like to emphasize smooth gradation of subject into out-of-focus areas, with background close but increasing out of focus as distance increases. Some like pretty aperture-shaped out-of-focus highlights for example sky showing through thick brush.

In my experience (severely limited compared to some others here!):

Aperture controls DOF and shape of oof highlights, if any.

Lens formulas control how the out-of-focus areas are rendered, either accurately (Zeiss) or with abberations such as multiple images, for example a twig appearing to be two (or more) identical twigs, or mirror lens doughnuts.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, way too many things contribute to how bokeh looks (lens, lens focal length, aperture, distance from subject, distance from background, type of background, lighting).

Add personal taste to this and it all gets mad.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What is the starting point, the shallowest DOF or something deeper? Would focussing too close blur the background too much?

Zuiko-Digital 17.5 - 45mm


Vivitar-28mm


Kiron 80-200mm with LED fill light.


Kiron 80-200mm


What is causing the inner ring of the spots in the last photo?

(please be critical.. honesty is the best teacher.)


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I sususpect the inner ring is just the tree light rather than lens issue. Someone of greater knowledge may have other thoughts.

Ok, same lens, same aperture; the closer you focus on the foreground, the more blurred the background will be.

The longer the focal length, the easier it will be to blur the background.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
mikenco wrote:
What is the starting point, the shallowest DOF or something deeper?


Keep inside DOF what is desired to be in focus. Bokeh occurs outside DOF. Distance of background objects from DOF determines how much out-of-focus they appear. Aperture controls how deep is DOF region.

mikenco wrote:
Would focussing too close blur the background too much?


What do the examples show? Wink

mikenco wrote:
What is causing the inner ring of the spots in the last photo?


Look inside the lens from the front element side. Look familiar? Use a bright torch (flashlight) or sunlight to fully illuminate the inside of the lens. Looks to me like the mount that moves a lens group during zoom. Every speck of dust inside lens can be seen in those circles (called out-of-focus highlights) too.


Tip: turn focus ring to lens closest focus distance. Watch closely the changes in the viewfinder as focus ring is slowly turned to infinity, then back to close focus distance. Try with different subjects. Eventually you'll get a 'feel' for how it works, much better than trying to explain it in words imho.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Worry about (and make the choices for) the things that must be in focus in your photo. Not those that don't have to be.
Bokeh will follow naturally.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
the out of focus 'circular' highlights are created when the lightsource is out of focus and the lens wide open.
one can play with them, 'creating' in image of only circles even without anything in focus:



or more usually do as your samples show, have something in focus in the foreground.





even then very likely most of the frame will be out of focus.
of course one should carefully compose the out of focus areas anticipating how the lens will render it.
and use these circular highlights to spice up an image



if you stop down the lens the circles will have 'corners', as many as the lens has aperture blades.

-----------
Though one could call these oof highlights a 'special kind of bokeh' IMO they are not at all what bokeh is about. More often try to avoid them:



aperture really depends on what you want, e.g. here it was stopped down a bit to make the green leaves in the background not too much blurred
but just a bit trying to find the most pleasing sharp / unsharp ballance



or here I wanted to have pretty much the whole flower in focus and stopped down quite a few stops,
but because it is close focusing and the background is relatively far away the background still is blurred enough:



specially for portraits it can be good to have a good 'subject separation' because of a well blurred background



composing with the bokeh many times can make an otherwise little interesting object more exciting



it certainly is a lot of fun to play with a fast lens wide open:





stopping down will give a more gradual, smooth transition



there is so much more to be said..hopefully someone else again too
I hope that some points were of interest ( though am not sure if it is only the oof highlights that you are after? )

the best way to learn is by experimenting Wink



PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks guys for the input and thanks kuuan for the examples. This has given me a lot of food for thought. I have just being going through my archive of photos taken over the last 12 years or so (most of the early ones shot on phones etc) and I can see now how I'd have shot so many of them differently. Not only in respect to bokeh, but focussing in general.

It appears to me that good focussing and DOF is the key difference between a 'nice' photo and a really good one.

Very Happy


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
mikenco wrote:

It appears to me that good focussing and DOF is the key difference between a 'nice' photo and a really good one.
Very Happy


Ok, this is quite a dangerous subject Very Happy
My take on it:

there is a subtle, but definite, line, that crosses the field and separates the expression from the mannerism.
Your sentence is dangerous because it walks over that line, like a rope walker between two skyscrapers Wink

Your sentence can be agreed upon, if the photo has a meaningful subject and the photographer has a vision. In that case, yes, the best focusing option and the artful use of the out of focus transitions can make the difference from a good photo with a good subject to a great photo with a good subject. As long as those choices are there to serve the photo and the subject, and not the other way around.

The danger, is exactly in the other way around. It's where the subject is not good enough, or the photographer's vision is not strong enough, or both, and the aesthetical aspects of the act of photographing (such as the "bokeh") are used as a surrogate for the missing elements, or as a spice for bland elements.

In this way of seeing things, it is important to point out that focusiing and OOF are not the things that make a good photograph: they can only enhance the quality of a photograph that is already good.
If the photo is not good to start with, they are helpless.

This is why I said earlier that my best advice for bokeh is to concentrate on the subject, and bokeh will follow automatically.
When your attention, your care, your photographic vision, are serving the subject, and not a style, that is when you are ready to take a great photo, and not an exercise of mannerism.
Then, after you have solidly put the foundations of your photo in the subject, the lighting, the situation... only then, your style will enter the scene, and put your fingerprint on the image.

The history of the arts has many examples of artists that survived their own inspiration, and ended up becoming imitators of themselves, mannerists of their own cliché. And that is bad, although always better than becoming the mannerist of someone else's cliché.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
mikenco wrote:
Thanks guys for the input and thanks kuuan for the examples. This has given me a lot of food for thought. I have just being going through my archive of photos taken over the last 12 years or so (most of the early ones shot on phones etc) and I can see now how I'd have shot so many of them differently. Not only in respect to bokeh, but focussing in general.

It appears to me that good focussing and DOF is the key difference between a 'nice' photo and a really good one.

Very Happy


you say on phones?
since when are you using SLR?
the small sensor of a phone or a compact make for a deep depth of field

the potentially shallow dof of a dSLR certainly is to be considered and used,
good focusing is most important, and so much more enjoyable with a manual lens Wink

if nice or really good, who says?
a digital camera invites to experimenting, bokeh a fascinating field.
most likely you will enjoy the process, maybe take more photos you feel really happy about Smile

Last edited by kuuan on Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, I whole-heartedly agree. If the subject matter is poor, then no amount of techniques is going to make it better. The whole purpose of my initial question was to gain a better understanding of some of the finer things to consider when setting up to take a shot.

Because I still consider myself as nothing more than a keen amateur, I have been trying to learn more techniques, I have been setting myself little goals for subject matter, such as macro, fireworks, lightning and weather, tilt-shift, astro-photography, moving water, light trails and so on.. I just happened to be curious as to approaches that experienced photographers, such as yourself, take when thinking about how to focus certain subjects.

Another topic that I hope to study soon is people and portraits and this is where the focussing issue comes into play, as many of the great photos that I have seen of people tend to isolate the subject within an environment (thinking more about candid shots in this instance). I'd love to know how Kuuan set up that photo of the guys playing pool. Was it staged? Was a tripod used? Or was it simply a lucky shot using a telephoto lens from across the room? However it was taken, what considerations were taken to focussing the shot?

Do you see where I am coming from? I have the utmost respect for all of the amazing photos that the guys on here shoot. I'm trying to absorb some of the knowledge in an attempt to better my own work.

Very Happy


PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
mikenco wrote:
..as many of the great photos that I have seen of people tend to isolate the subject within an environment (thinking more about candid shots in this instance).


candids, maybe with teles, in ( wide ) public spaces make for great subject separation
( mine is a very poor sample, and btw. might be better with more detail in the background Wink )

mikenco wrote:
..I'd love to know how Kuuan set up that photo of the guys playing pool. Was it staged? Was a tripod used? Or was it simply a lucky shot using a telephoto lens from across the room? However it was taken, what considerations were taken to focussing the shot?
Very Happy


that's easy:
for his 'stare' of course I tried to focus on his eye
it was not staged, but me sitting in front of a beer on a table close by.
handheld high ISO was needed, stopping down the lens would have required upping the ISO even more
and I was curious how the the f1.9/85mm Super Takumar and I would perform wide open anyways Wink
lucky? well, for me I was doing a good job!
maybe I took 20 or 30 and there were quite a few decently focused, and some that I quite liked.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thank you for clearing that up Kuuan. I'm not sure if I'd be so brave to photograph blokes in the bars where I live! If I did, I'm not sure if I'd get out of the bar with my camera intact.

Good photo anyway (as are all of your examples)!
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