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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5038 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: History question: Russian RF teles [was: J6 C/K] |
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kansalliskala wrote:
Is there such a lens? [Jupiter 6 for Contax / Kiev]
If not, why? All others were copied. _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E
Last edited by kansalliskala on Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 1189 Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
A rare few Jupiter-6 labelled lenses have appeared on ebay - a 2.8/180mm in P6/Kiev 60 mount, obviously a Olympia Sonnar copy. These probably were made from Zeiss parts, or they would have made higher numbers. We'll probably never find out why they did not enter series production, but at a guess, they had no application for it until the late fifties (there was no use for it on the Kiev as they never produced a accessory mirror box, and their medium format production was still experimental and low volume), and later, they had to play by Comecon rules and the plan may have assigned building that 2.8/180 to Jena. _________________ Sevo |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Lens diameter is huge, you can't use RF ... _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5038 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
Attila wrote: |
Lens diameter is huge, you can't use RF ... |
I mean it is the same lens as Olympic Sonnar?
Why didn't russians copy that when thein copied the other Sonnars?
And why didn't they copy the mirror box?
One answer could be that they knew about Contax S planning or had similar plans themselves? _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
Genuine Sonnar also very, very rare made in low amount reason was obvious , limited usage. I don't know many 180mm or longer RF lens. Early SLR did come in same years when Russian did stole German properties I think main reason was after war early SLR cameras was available and they made rather for that than for RF , this is my theory. I saw 2-3 times only my life on sale early Contax Sonnar perhaps even less. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 1189 Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
kansalliskala wrote: |
I mean it is the same lens as Olympic Sonnar?
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Yes.
kansalliskala wrote: |
And why didn't they copy the mirror box?
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Well, for one there may have been a "divide-et-impera" between the USSR and GDR at work, where the one rebuilt the Contax and the other went SLR - later, when there was a joint Comecon plan, there officially were similar arrangements and instruments of one type were assigned to one maker or a small group.
For the other, the Soviets had considered cloning the Flektoskop, at least it is on their item list. But they but seem to have been unable to get hold of the tools used for it. Perhaps these had perished in a bombing, had been relocated West before the end of the war, or the Flektoskop had always been made in Stuttgart. _________________ Sevo |
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aoleg
Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Posts: 1387 Location: Berlin, DE
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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aoleg wrote:
Attila wrote: |
Early SLR did come in same years when Russian did stole German properties I think main reason was after war early SLR cameras was available and they made rather for that than for RF , this is my theory. I saw 2-3 times only my life on sale early Contax Sonnar perhaps even less. |
History says that after the war, all German patents were invalidated and basically became available for anyone. That's how the whole camera industry started in Japan: if you look at their lenses, almost all of them were Zeiss copies optically. However, the Japanese developed quickly, and Russian optical industry was slow... to illustrate how slow it is, I can only say that Jupiter-9 (Sonnar 85/2 clone) is still in production today (or at least it was just a few years ago). _________________ List of lenses |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
aoleg wrote: |
History says that after the war, all German patents were invalidated and basically became available for anyone. . |
Nice ... _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5038 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
Ok, what do you say about this. And why didn't they use Sonnar / J6 for this?
http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?f=popup&id=236073&_ssl=off#236075
edit:
Now I'm baffled. Reflex box has year 1945 (1945г cyrillic)
But is Tair 300 so old ..
edit edit:
Ok, not Tair but GOI 4,5/30cm, this could explain why they didn't copy Sonnar, they had already a better lens for this purpose. _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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Attila
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 57865 Location: Hungary
Expire: 2025-11-18
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Attila wrote:
kansalliskala wrote: |
Ok, what do you say about this. And why didn't they use Sonnar / J6 for this?
http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?f=popup&id=236073&_ssl=off#236075
edit:
Now I'm baffled. Reflex box has year 1945 (1945г cyrillic)
But is Tair 300 so old ..
edit edit:
Ok, not Tair but GOI 4,5/30cm, this could explain why they didn't copy Sonnar, they had already a better lens for this purpose. |
That Reflex box not factory made , too raw even for Russian product. _________________ -------------------------------
Items on sale on Ebay
Sony NEX-7 Carl Zeiss Planar 85mm f1.4, Minolta MD 35mm f1.8, Konica 135mm f2.5, Minolta MD 50mm f1.2, Minolta MD 250mm f5.6, Carl Zeiss Sonnar 180mm f2.8
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 1189 Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
kansalliskala wrote: |
Ok, what do you say about this. And why didn't they use Sonnar / J6 for this?
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Other factory/combine - there does not seem to have been much kindliness between the competing USSR lens and camera makers. They did only supply lenses for each other the few times the party forced them to... _________________ Sevo |
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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5038 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
Actually my question is wrong: why didn't KMZ produce a Fed-version of the 180/2.8 lens, since they started making the Photsnaiper since 1943? That would have been more practical than the original slow 300mm version?
(by practical I mean when you try to take photos of enemy artillery or smth. at sundown)
some more about FS-2:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tomtiger/fs-2/fs-2.html
Answer could just be: for some reason they didn't get that machine / parts / drawings or it was somehow too difficult to produce. Is Tair optical scheme easier to manufacture? _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 1189 Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
kansalliskala wrote: |
Actually my question is wrong: why didn't KMZ produce a Fed-version of the 180/2.8 lens, |
KMZ could not - it was Arsenal that had been assigned the former Zeiss product line. _________________ Sevo |
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kansalliskala
Joined: 19 Jul 2007 Posts: 5038 Location: Southern Finland countryside
Expire: 2016-12-30
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Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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kansalliskala wrote:
There is some confusing information here:
Quote: |
KMZ was the primary manufacturer of optical devices during WW2. They were rewarded for this by receiving all of the captured German optical data and lens manufacturing equipment.
...
The Arsenal in Kiev was rewarded for its War service by being given the Equipment from Carl Zeiss to produce a copy of the Contax. Initially the lenses came from KMZ. Later design capabilities for both lenses and cameras were developed. |
http://www.commiecameras.com/sov/index.htm
http://www.commiecameras.com/sov/35mmrangefindercameras/lenses/index.htm
Do you have a good online source? _________________ MF: Kodak DCS SLR/c; Samsung NX10; OM-10; Canon T50
Zuiko 28/3.5, Distagon 35/2.8; Yashica ML 50/2;
Zuiko 50/1.4; S-M-C 120/2.8; Zuiko 135/3.5; 200/5;
Tamron AD1 135/2.8, Soligor 180/3.5; Tamron AD1 300/5.6
Tamron zooms: 01A, Z-210
Yashicaflex C; Київ 4 + Юпитер 8, 11; Polaroid 100; Olympus XA; Yashica T3
Museum stuff: Certo-Phot; Tele-Edixon 135; Polaris 90-190; Asahi Bellows; Ixus IIs
Projects: Agfa Isolette III (no shutter), Canon AE-1D (no sensor),
Nikon D80 (dead), The "Peace Camera"
AF: Canon, Tokina, Sigma Video: JVC GZ-MG275E |
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Sevo
Joined: 22 Aug 2008 Posts: 1189 Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Expire: 2012-12-03
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Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Sevo wrote:
[quote="kansalliskala"]There is some confusing information here:
Quote: |
KMZ was the primary manufacturer of optical devices during WW2. They were rewarded for this by receiving all of the captured German optical data and lens manufacturing equipment.
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So why were they only making that few Zeiss derived lenses beyond those made for Arsenal? IMHO that either implies that Arsenal was in charge of things Zeiss and the various USSR lens makers (KMZ was not their only supplier) acted like subcontractors, or that KMZ did not care much/disliked having to rebuild Zeiss lenses.
The latter would not be surprising, KMZ was the most advanced optical industry plant in the USSR, with its own capable engineers, and was rolling out original products like the Zorki-2 or Zenit and their lenses, which at that time could compete with Western products. Arsenal was set up from scratch, with the initial idea of taking over all Zeiss production and trademarks, and the primary intention to transfer redundant armament workers into a civilian industry. In terms of quality, German thirties designs may have been up to par with fifties Soviet designs, but to insiders it must already back then have been quite obvious that Kiev was on a descending track, while KMZ was hot - by the seventies, Arsenal was producing for landfills while KMZ was one of the biggest camera exporters world wide... _________________ Sevo |
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