Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

History question: Russian RF teles [was: J6 C/K]
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:42 am    Post subject: History question: Russian RF teles [was: J6 C/K] Reply with quote
Is there such a lens? [Jupiter 6 for Contax / Kiev]

If not, why? All others were copied.

Last edited by kansalliskala on Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
A rare few Jupiter-6 labelled lenses have appeared on ebay - a 2.8/180mm in P6/Kiev 60 mount, obviously a Olympia Sonnar copy. These probably were made from Zeiss parts, or they would have made higher numbers. We'll probably never find out why they did not enter series production, but at a guess, they had no application for it until the late fifties (there was no use for it on the Kiev as they never produced a accessory mirror box, and their medium format production was still experimental and low volume), and later, they had to play by Comecon rules and the plan may have assigned building that 2.8/180 to Jena.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lens diameter is huge, you can't use RF ...


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
Lens diameter is huge, you can't use RF ...


I mean it is the same lens as Olympic Sonnar?
Why didn't russians copy that when thein copied the other Sonnars?
And why didn't they copy the mirror box?

One answer could be that they knew about Contax S planning or had similar plans themselves?


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Genuine Sonnar also very, very rare made in low amount reason was obvious , limited usage. I don't know many 180mm or longer RF lens. Early SLR did come in same years when Russian did stole German properties I think main reason was after war early SLR cameras was available and they made rather for that than for RF , this is my theory. I saw 2-3 times only my life on sale early Contax Sonnar perhaps even less.


PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kansalliskala wrote:


I mean it is the same lens as Olympic Sonnar?


Yes.

kansalliskala wrote:

And why didn't they copy the mirror box?


Well, for one there may have been a "divide-et-impera" between the USSR and GDR at work, where the one rebuilt the Contax and the other went SLR - later, when there was a joint Comecon plan, there officially were similar arrangements and instruments of one type were assigned to one maker or a small group.

For the other, the Soviets had considered cloning the Flektoskop, at least it is on their item list. But they but seem to have been unable to get hold of the tools used for it. Perhaps these had perished in a bombing, had been relocated West before the end of the war, or the Flektoskop had always been made in Stuttgart.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Attila wrote:
Early SLR did come in same years when Russian did stole German properties I think main reason was after war early SLR cameras was available and they made rather for that than for RF , this is my theory. I saw 2-3 times only my life on sale early Contax Sonnar perhaps even less.

History says that after the war, all German patents were invalidated and basically became available for anyone. That's how the whole camera industry started in Japan: if you look at their lenses, almost all of them were Zeiss copies optically. However, the Japanese developed quickly, and Russian optical industry was slow... to illustrate how slow it is, I can only say that Jupiter-9 (Sonnar 85/2 clone) is still in production today (or at least it was just a few years ago).


PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
History says that after the war, all German patents were invalidated and basically became available for anyone. .


Nice ...


PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok, what do you say about this. And why didn't they use Sonnar / J6 for this?

http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?f=popup&id=236073&_ssl=off#236075

edit:
Now I'm baffled. Reflex box has year 1945 (1945г cyrillic)
But is Tair 300 so old .. Confused
edit edit:
Ok, not Tair but GOI 4,5/30cm, this could explain why they didn't copy Sonnar, they had already a better lens for this purpose.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kansalliskala wrote:
Ok, what do you say about this. And why didn't they use Sonnar / J6 for this?

http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?f=popup&id=236073&_ssl=off#236075

edit:
Now I'm baffled. Reflex box has year 1945 (1945г cyrillic)
But is Tair 300 so old .. Confused
edit edit:
Ok, not Tair but GOI 4,5/30cm, this could explain why they didn't copy Sonnar, they had already a better lens for this purpose.


That Reflex box not factory made , too raw even for Russian product.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kansalliskala wrote:
Ok, what do you say about this. And why didn't they use Sonnar / J6 for this?


Other factory/combine - there does not seem to have been much kindliness between the competing USSR lens and camera makers. They did only supply lenses for each other the few times the party forced them to...


PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually my question is wrong: why didn't KMZ produce a Fed-version of the 180/2.8 lens, since they started making the Photsnaiper since 1943? That would have been more practical than the original slow 300mm version?

(by practical I mean when you try to take photos of enemy artillery or smth. at sundown)

some more about FS-2:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~tomtiger/fs-2/fs-2.html

Answer could just be: for some reason they didn't get that machine / parts / drawings or it was somehow too difficult to produce. Is Tair optical scheme easier to manufacture?


PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kansalliskala wrote:
Actually my question is wrong: why didn't KMZ produce a Fed-version of the 180/2.8 lens,


KMZ could not - it was Arsenal that had been assigned the former Zeiss product line.


PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
There is some confusing information here:
Quote:
KMZ was the primary manufacturer of optical devices during WW2. They were rewarded for this by receiving all of the captured German optical data and lens manufacturing equipment.
...
The Arsenal in Kiev was rewarded for its War service by being given the Equipment from Carl Zeiss to produce a copy of the Contax. Initially the lenses came from KMZ. Later design capabilities for both lenses and cameras were developed.

http://www.commiecameras.com/sov/index.htm
http://www.commiecameras.com/sov/35mmrangefindercameras/lenses/index.htm

Do you have a good online source?


PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="kansalliskala"]There is some confusing information here:
Quote:
KMZ was the primary manufacturer of optical devices during WW2. They were rewarded for this by receiving all of the captured German optical data and lens manufacturing equipment.


So why were they only making that few Zeiss derived lenses beyond those made for Arsenal? IMHO that either implies that Arsenal was in charge of things Zeiss and the various USSR lens makers (KMZ was not their only supplier) acted like subcontractors, or that KMZ did not care much/disliked having to rebuild Zeiss lenses.

The latter would not be surprising, KMZ was the most advanced optical industry plant in the USSR, with its own capable engineers, and was rolling out original products like the Zorki-2 or Zenit and their lenses, which at that time could compete with Western products. Arsenal was set up from scratch, with the initial idea of taking over all Zeiss production and trademarks, and the primary intention to transfer redundant armament workers into a civilian industry. In terms of quality, German thirties designs may have been up to par with fifties Soviet designs, but to insiders it must already back then have been quite obvious that Kiev was on a descending track, while KMZ was hot - by the seventies, Arsenal was producing for landfills while KMZ was one of the biggest camera exporters world wide...
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Manual Focus Lenses
Page 1 of 1