medium format advice

[rbelyell]

my new (old) pentacon 6 is winging its way to me and in advance of getting it, i would like to buy film to do a test run, as i am sure there will be things wrong w the camera, and with how i use it. now i have never even held one of these in my hand, so i seek the experts advice:

1-what type of film should i buy at first, just to take test shots and get my feet wet;
2-what type of film should i move on to once im feeling a little confident, and the camera has been corrected for whatever problems i find during testing;
3-are there battery issues with respect to the proper working of the prism, ie, do i have to purchase any kind of an adapter etc and what batteries can i use with this cameras prism?
4-any other advice that you would like to share with a total novice???

thanks to all!
tony

[Attila]

Try first with any 120mm film color or BW mater no matter.
Seek Google about overlapping information , many of them overlap shoots, but with little care you should avoid.

If I remember as well prism takes normal alkaline battery but I am not sure.

I like all ISO 160 color film from Kodak and Fuji. Konica 220 superb film also and available on Ebay very cheap. Oh buy frozen expired film lot cheaper than fresh one and same good.

I did purchase from this sales and tested. Perfect!

Click here to see on Ebay

[cooltouch]

I've only had medium format cameras back in my hands for a few months after several years of none. I have only tried a few different film types so far, but those I've tried have done a good job. All are 120, haven't tried any 220 yet.

B&W:
Kodak Tri-X Professional (400TX). This is simply the best B&W film I've ever used. I love it. Cheap, too. Easy to process yourself. I just used Kodak D76 and Kodak Fixer chemicals, with great results.

Color:
Kodak Ektar 100. Very nice color, very fine grain.
Kodak Portra 160, exposed at EI 100 for improved color saturation. Grain almost as fine as Ektar, very good color saturation.

Both of the above color films are reasonably priced also.

I haven't tried any slide film yet. I'll probably give Provia F a try first. I think you'll find that just about any modern slide emulsion will do a fine job.

[kansalliskala]

If your developer does prints take standard color negative film. Else slide or B&W. They can be digitized somewhat easier with "kitchen tools" .

The orange layer makes color negative film scanning difficult if you don't have a proper MF scanner.

[luisalegria]

The cheapest new 120 film available in the US -

Arista EDU Ultra 100

$2.29

from these guys -

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/

Works very well.

[rawhead]

Here's a tutorial on loading & winding P6 to avoid frame overlap. It's in Japanese but I put English subs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr5o44q8_bA

[Attila]

Hey , many thanks for this subtitle and for author !!

[peterqd]

Tony, I have two little tips about using 120 film that I wish someone had told me about, so here they are for you:

Because there is no facility for rewinding the film, it is not possible to change the film in mid-roll like you can with 135 film. Therefore try to use up a complete roll when you're out shooting, and store the camera empty. That way you can choose the next film type to suit the occasion.

Be prepared to waste a complete roll of cheapo film to practice loading and unloading, and keep it wound with the paper, as it comes new. This might not be necessary to get to know the camera, but it will be extremely useful to practice with if you're planning to load a developing reel with 120. And you'll always have a spare spool in case you lose one.

Good luck with the P6!

[rbelyell]

thank you to everyone here; your thoughts and advice are very much appreciated. i will be checking out all the film recommendations, and particular thanks for translating that site to rawhead.
tony

[PaulC]

There IS a battery problem. It uses the discontinued 1.35v mercury battery. You need either the zinc-air replacement or (possibly best) the adapter to take hearing aid batteries.

WHATEVER YOU DO do not let your thumb slip off the winder handle after you have wound on. If the winder handle flies back to the rest position it CAN smash the film frame counter mechanism ... don't ask me how I know this (if it does, you can still use the camera but you have to keep note of how many frames you have shot because the frame counter window will tell you nothing). Particular care needs to be taken when loading the camera, as that is the time when the winding handle is likely to be in a more awkward position (that is when mine slipped).

Possible problems include vertical banding from the curtains shutting at an uneven rate and problems with the shutter speed, especially around 1/125 due to the gooey grease used by Pentacon. Ultimately the grease may cause the second curtain to stop closing at all at certain speeds (my best, almost mint, P6 is currently being serviced and regreased because of this).

When properly serviced, the P6 is a very fine camera. I had one back in t he 70s and it was a gem - but the grease hadn't had time to dry out then.

I think the backing paper on the film may also have been thicker, because overlapping frames does seem to be more of a problem now than it was (in fact, it wasn't a problem for me at all back then). The trick of half-depressing the shutter button while winding until the back to the wind-on lever is exactly parallel with the front of the body and then releasing the shutter button for the last 30 degrees or so of wind is a sure-fire way to avoid overlap. If you use the camera enough it will become second nature to do that.

[rbelyell]

paul thank you so much for the advice, that's great stuff. i know the kiev 60 has a dedicated battery adapter. i have not been able to find one on ebay for the pentacon. do you have any specific suggestion of something i can buy to remedy the issue you cite?
thanks

[PaulC]

It used exactly the same battery as the Nikon F and loads of other old light meters, so anything that is good for them is good for the Pentacon.

I'm using the Wein Cell MRB625. I can't tell you how accurate it is because just as the cell arrived the camera stopped working (and my other one, with the broken frame counter, is currently in Greece).

The problem with Wein Cells is that they are reputed to have a short life once you open them - some people say as little as four to six months (so I will probably need to open another packet by the time my camera gets back to me).

A better solution might be the adapter that reduces the voltage of a silver oxide battery to 1.35v, they are for sale here:
https://www.criscam.com/newsite/mercury_battery_adapters.php

However, I've read that silver oxide batteries die slowly, and their voltage drops, so after a certain time they might become inaccurate. I'm not an expert so I can't judge. Even if they do, it wouldn't cost much to stick in a new battery if you are doing something where metering is critical and have any doubts about the age of the battery.

Or you could use this push-in adapter with hearing aid batteries: http://www.paulbg.com/Nikon_F_meter_batteries.htm

I guess you still have the risk of the battery dying in a few months but the batteries these use cost less than $1 each so it won't break the bank if you change them two or three times a year.

Actually, I think I will get a couple of those myself.

[rbelyell]

thanks a lot paul, that was very helpful, and very nice of you. much appreciated.
tony

[cooltouch]

About batteries, I have a couple of old Canons that require the 1.35v mercury battery, and I use a number 675 hearing aid battery, which puts out 1.4v. It's about the same height as the old 625, but a smaller diameter. A quik and easy, yet effective adapter is to just use a piece of wire. I take about a 1" long piece of 18 gauge wire, curl it up and insert it into the battery compartment. The 675 fits snugly down into the smaller "pocket". This easy adapter works just fine, as long as your camera uses the cover and the floor of the compartment for electrical contacts. Some use the side of the compartment for a contact. If this is the case, one can get some aluminum foil and fold it to the right height and thickness, and insert it between the battery and the sides of the compartment for the required electrical contact. Fortunately, with my Canons this isn't necessary -- a small snippet of wire is all they need.

The 675 battery is a zinc-air battery, same as the Wein cell. But the great thing about the 675 is, for the cost of a single Wein cell, you can buy 6 or more 675s. They last about the same length of time as the Wein also -- about six months or so.

[rbelyell]

cool michael, thanks! havent received the camera yet, so not sure about the physical setup...

[PaulC]

It takes a single battery. The Nikon Photomic needs the side contact but I don't believe the meter on the P6 does (it's not immediately obvious from looking at the battery chamber) so the wire trick would probably work.

BTW, if you forget to turn the meter off, you won't need to worry about the battery lasting six months, it won't last six days

[peterqd]

Silver-oxide cells are the nearest equivalent to the old mercury-oxide cells performance-wise, in that they last longer than other types and the output curve is virtually flat and constant until they die quite suddenly. They're ideally suited for voltage-dependent lightmeters which are used sporadically. Output per cell is 1.55v

Cheaper alkali cells also start at 1.55v but have a steeper slope - the voltage drops steadily throughout their lifetime, and in practice they have a much shorter life and work out more expensive.

1.4v zinc-air and hearing aid batteries are the same thing. They start producing current when exposed to air and then have quite a short life of around 3 months, whether or not the current is used. If locked in an air-tight battery compartment, they sometimes fade and need re-ventilating to restore the output voltage.

[PaulC]

Thanks for clearing that up Peter.

In that case the trouble with silver oxide is simply the voltage (and the shape, of course). It will mean that the meter reading is constantly off. It is possible to get the meter recalibrated but I don't know anything about that.

I suppose you could do the calibration for yourself, by checking the readings against a known meter and using an adjustment factor for the ISO that you dial in.

If the difference is about one stop you could just use the white dot that is there to indicate metering with the brighter Fresnel screen instead of the little arrow (unless you already have the Fresnel screen fitted, of course)

[peterqd]

Paul, I think I'm right in saying that the P6 does not itself need any battery at all. The battery is only needed for the TTL metering prism, and I'm not sure Tony's camera has one of these, maybe he will confirm. If it has a prism at all, the non-metering type is more common I think.

If it IS a metering prism, it is possible that, like the Spotmatic, the needle is responsive to voltage variations. I can't find any info to confirm this ATM, but it is much more likely the needle is centred when there is zero current. If so, voltage variations will affect the responsiveness of the needle, but not actually affect the meter's accuracy.

I'm using a common or garden 1.55v SR44 silver cell in the Spotmatic SPF (which was also designed for the 625 mercury cell) and it has no effect on the metering. It's necessary to prevent the cell contacting the side of the compartment - I use a rubber grommet, or you could easily fashion a ring with a piece of plastic wire insulation or a strip cut from a foam dishwashing sponge. Tony, if you need to use a battery maybe it would be wise to try this before buying any adapters, testing against a handheld meter or another camera.

The part about the battery in this article seems to suggest it will work fine.
http://www.pentaconsix.com/metering.htm

[PaulC]

Yes, it is only the P6 meter that needs the battery. It is a separate unit. The Camera usually comes with either the waist-level finder or the non-metering prism. The metering version is quite expensive itself, at around $50.

The needle rests near the zero but not actually on it when the meter is switched off. It's within about a third of a stop on mine.

If that means that the voltage is not important then it is a major bit of info. Everything I've ever seen suggests that the voltage is critical for light meters - the "solution" salesmen make a big thing about getting it as near as possible to the original battery output, but maybe that is just a marketing ploy.

[cooltouch]

Even some old cameras have a bridge circuit for their meters that tends to obviate the need for a precise voltage. I've read that the Spotmatic is one. Canon SLRs that use the old PX625, like the FTb and F-1, do not have this circuit, thus require an accurate voltage.

It has been my experience thus far that the zinc-air 675 battery lasts a good deal longer than 3 months. I installed a 675 in my FTb last October, and just now checked its voltage with a multimeter. It's reading 1.39v. So, I think even 6 months might be a bit on the conservative side. YMMV.

[peterqd]

[cooltouch]

My apologies, Peter. I must have missed your earlier response. I would recommend that, as long as you're correcting this misconception, you forward the above link to the author of the Photoethnography site as well -- which is where I found the erroneous info.

[peterqd]

[cooltouch]

Hey, I always prefer truth to rhetoric -- or goonish opinions, far as that goes. So it's not a "view" with me really, since "view" implies 'opinion.' And I don't see room for opinions when matters of fact are being discussed.

Perhaps Karen might be just as easily convinced?

I agree about the Camera Repair Forum (assuming you're referring to the kyphoto one). A couple other ones I've come to respect are APUG and Hybrid Photo forums as well.