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jean dodge
Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 4
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:15 pm Post subject: seeking two-touch zooms for vDSLR w EOS mount adaptors |
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jean dodge wrote:
Looking for recommendations for a some good, relatively fast zooms that have separate rings for zoom and focus, for use shooting video with a full frame canon 5D mk2. From looking around a bit it seems like the nikkor 50-300mm f3.5 seems like a good candidate for DSLR film making. The lens keeps a consistent f stop throughout the zoom range, and covers a wide focal length range, two important factors. Manual focus and iris are valuable too obviously. This nikon lens was introduced as zooms were first getting widespread use in the late 1960s and before the designs seemed to settle on push-pull and the breakdown of short zoom vs long zoom.
But there are yashicas and even some soligors that seem like they might be worth checking out, too. Does anyone have some suggestions? Weight and size are not a problem, I'm a lot more worried about holding focus and exposure throughout a zoom's range instead.
I'm hoping to imitate the Robert Altman style of zooming and hiding the moves with dolly shots, a style of cinematography that started in the early 1970s when 10-1 zooms like the Angeneiux 25-250mm were introduced and gaining popularity. A typical shot would seldom zoom more than 20-40mm but the constant smooth creep along with the camera's tracking kept the visuals moving at all times. It's a distinctive look, achieved in part with stepper motors controlling the zoom rate. There are fluid dampened cogs one can employ as resistance to emulate this, and that's what I hope to try using if I can find a suitable zoom. Thanks all. |
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cooltouch
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 9096 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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cooltouch wrote:
You'll find, with most zooms, that the image will shift slightly as you begin the zoom motion. Sometimes, focus will also shift. Companies that convert still photography lenses for the movie industry go through the lenses to eliminate these issues, then charge big bucks for these services.
Nonetheless, I think the Nikkor 50-300 is probably an excellent choice, given your criterion of having a fixed aperture. Canon also produced a 50-300mm -- their legendary 50-300mm f/4.5 L. If you could find one of these, it would be worth converting for your project, since I feel reasonably certain it will outperform the Nikkor 50-300.
If you can get by with the lost of one stop of light during the zoom, the Tamron SP 60-300mm f/3.8-5.4 might be all you need. It's an excellent lens, although not in the same league as the Canon 50-300.
As for the wide end, the Vivitar 24-48mm f/3.8 constant aperture is a good optic. I own one and am quite happy with its performance. There's also the Tamron SP 28-105 f/2.8 Adaptall-II, which is still available new. It's pricey, and from what I've been told, somewhat soft wide open, but otherwise an excellent lens as well.
Finally, given that you're using a 5d Mk II and not some manual-exposure movie camera, it seems to me you might just want to take advantage of its capabilities. Why not use a good Canon or aftermarket zoom that meets your focal length needs? As you zoom, the 5dmkII will adjust for exposure, won't it? So fixed aperture shouldn't be critical unless you're running up against the frame rate limits, and even then, seems to me this will be an issue even with a fixed aperture optic. I don't guess you have autofocus during video capture though, do you? Still, given that most EF lenses are two-ring zooms these days, MF shouldn't be a problem I would think. _________________ Michael
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jean dodge
Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 4
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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jean dodge wrote:
I understand about focus shift, breathing and the problems of using zooms that weren't designed for motion picture use. That's why I figure I am going to need to try to kiss a few frogs before I find a prince. It's a compromise at best and we'll be faking the look of a professional motion picture zoom lens, that's for certain.
Sadly, the D5 Mk2 ability to adjust exposure in-shot by varying the frame rate is not very smooth with motion picture. I certainly wouldn't trust it to make a shot usable with a slow exposure change. You might get away with a shot that started in a dark room and then emerged into sunlight, with the obvious but natural moment of eye adjustment.
But zooms that change f/stop by just a little might be "good enough" if used right, and careful attention was paid to the composition and such. I'll just have to experiment. The goal is to keep things moving at all times anyway, so there is the hope that one can hide some flaws in the shot just by keeping it busy. I sort of wanted to try a very cheap zoom and a not-so-cheap zoom and see what the difference was, in real world conditions.
A long time ago I owned a cheap Soligor zoom that somehow had managed to stay in good condition despite its age, and was surprised at how well it worked when I used it on a 16mm experimental film.
I've experimented a bit with a nikkor 80-200mm push-pull zoom and been surprised at how close on can come but the results are far, far from repeatable or reliable, but encouraging all the same.
The nikon 35-70 f 3.5 AI seems like a candidate for trials, too but the range is somewhat slight compared to others.
The focal lengths at which some of this stuff becomes less obvious seems to be in the range of 75-105mm, because you end up using it with the subject at a middle distance moving from one side of a room to another room, things like that while the camera tracks past a lot of foreground elements, extras, etc. and maintains head size more or less as the dance continues, most often moving towards a closer view by the final moments of the shot. Actions are predictable - approaching to knock on a door, walking and talking with an acquaintance, entering past a doorman or valet, passing by a crowd at a party, etc. We separate our heros form the world with shallow DOF and keeping track and pace with their movements.
Also there was a contax that was AF that caught my eye.... a Contax N Vario-Sonnar 24-85mm/F3.5-4.5 but that was just because I saw one locally that I might be able to borrow... but i wasnt sure on the mount issues. I'm just getting started on this project and I think it might take me some time to figure out the limitations and even what exactly is the ideal.... thanks for the help, this is a great forum.
I'm leaning towards trying the nikkors first since they are a known quantity to me, and easy to adapt. Allthough that adaptall sounds promising. |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
Hi Jean..
have a look on this thread, maybe this lens could be a good choice for making movies on the EOS 5D MKII.
http://forum.mflenses.com/angenieux-2-5-3-3-35-70mm-leica-r-mount-t19877.html
I did buy the lens first for photography, but on christmas i am going to be an owner of a 5D MKII too.
The lens was made by the french Angenieux company, one of the biggest lens maker for movie film cams like Beaullieux or Arriflex and its a two ring construction as you want for your cam.
This could be your "prince" before kissing the ugly frogs..
One of the guys, i think it was kds315* is willing to sell his lens, because he dont work with zooms or did a mistake in thinking so he cant adapt the lens on his cams.. maybe you can ask him.
There are also some cheap two ring constructions like a Tokina RMC II 3.5/35-70mm i have for Nikon Mount, but the exactly in focus/focus shift problem i did found only on the Angenieuxs brings the best precision..
Angenieux did also a second one.. 3.5/70-210mm in same two touch construction which is also very exactly in terms of focus shift.
Cheers
Henry _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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jean dodge
Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 4
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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jean dodge wrote:
Yes, wow, thanks Henry, that's exactly what I hoped to find by posting here.... I have used Angenieux lenses for motion picture work before and did not even know they made lenses for still cameras. While it seems expensive, it's very likely worth it, and given that the company also makes cine lenses perhaps they have similar design and craftsmanship incorporated and the lens will perform well for motion picture, too. Angenieux pretty much owned the market for 16mm cine lenses from the 1970s through the 1980s. Their reputation is good in cinematographer circles.
For zooming shots I'm guessing the best strategy is simply to stop down to f/4.5 or 5.6 anyway and use the longer end of the zoom to produce the shallow DOF look I want anyway.
It is too bad the Angenieux isn't a longer lens... I'm guessing it would be an ideal candidate for the short end of the zoom range however. And, apparently it has a matching longer version, very nice. |
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Olivier
Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 5083 Location: France
Expire: 2015-08-06
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Olivier wrote:
I have both Angenieux.
I just began a topic about the 3.5/70-210mm
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,194534.html#194534
I'll post some more shots in better weather conditions.
Jean, where do you live ?
If in France, there are bargains coming out sometimes, and here for example :
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/77810286.htm?ca=17_s
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/72216752.htm?ca=17_s
in this lot, I proposed 200€ for the 3.5/70-210mm and the seller agreed. But I found mine before, so...
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/62015436.htm?ca=17_s
Henry, do you know this Angenieux ?
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/78998232.htm?ca=17_s
It seems to be a Nikon mount 3.5/28mm retrofocus. for 60€, is it a bargain ?
and frome the same seller, an Exakta 2.5/35mm retrofocus for 50 €
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/78997251.htm?ca=17_s
Cheers _________________ Olivier - Moderator
Dslr : Olympus Pen E-P2 - Fujifilm X-Pro2 - Canon 5D MkII.
SLr and MF lenses : for feedback and helping people, cameras and lenses I own : full list here http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,1442740.html#1442740 |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
Olivier wrote: |
I have both Angenieux.
I just began a topic about the 3.5/70-210mm
http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic,p,194534.html#194534
I'll post some more shots in better weather conditions.
Jean, where do you live ?
If in France, there are bargains coming out sometimes, and here for example :
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/77810286.htm?ca=17_s
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/72216752.htm?ca=17_s
in this lot, I proposed 200€ for the 3.5/70-210mm and the seller agreed. But I found mine before, so...
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/62015436.htm?ca=17_s
Henry, do you know this Angenieux ?
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/78998232.htm?ca=17_s
It seems to be a Nikon mount 3.5/28mm retrofocus. for 60€, is it a bargain ?
and frome the same seller, an Exakta 2.5/35mm retrofocus for 50 €
http://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/78997251.htm?ca=17_s
Cheers |
Hi Olivier,
no, i dont know this 28mm, but i am interested in the 135mm, i think it was "Kooji" who did show us.. its a beauty in haptik and performance... i like it.
But seemed to be very rare..
Cheers
Henry _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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hinnerker
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 929 Location: Germany near Kiel
Expire: 2015-08-09
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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hinnerker wrote:
jean dodge wrote: |
It is too bad the Angenieux isn't a longer lens... I'm guessing it would be an ideal candidate for the short end of the zoom range however. And, apparently it has a matching longer version, very nice. |
In terms of focal lenght for films it is important to know, that most films are not continously done with one lens.
Only small parts of a TV or movie film where done with only one lens! As a photographer who did stills for TV magazines "on the set" and also making big pictures for advertising columns (Litfaßsäulen) for theaters, i did realize that during a lot of observing the cameramens work.
He uses 20 or 30 Lenses out of his bag in 10 days.
They often changed there lenses, depending of what kind of scene the are work on the set. So, for me its not the biggest point to find a lens who can do all for me. For me would be more important, to find, what actually is good for the scene i do plan to realize..
Its like in stills, no "Supertele" is good enough to fullfill my needs..
so its the best way to look for lenses for special situations.
Cheers
Henry _________________ some light-painting lens stuff..
... and an EOS 5D MKII
www.digicamclub.de |
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jean dodge
Joined: 18 Nov 2009 Posts: 4
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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jean dodge wrote:
Yes, of course many lenses are needed to make a feature film.. but the style of 1970s cinematography I am trying to emulate here features the look of one lens with a wide focal range, so that the lens is always changing perspective within any given shot, either by dolly, zoom or usually a combination of the two. Angenieux's 25-250mm cine zooms were what made this look possible, and Panavision soon copied the designs for their own versions. Cinema uses 35mm film at 24 or 25 frames per second and as such any one frame is never truly that sharp anyway - the exposure time is 1/48th or / of a second. It is the ILLUSION of sharpness that comes across to the audience.
Because of this, it is possible to chose lenses that place the design emphasis more on good contrast than on precise clarity. A sharp cine lens is not as important as one that gets good color separation. Interesting to blend the two worlds...
Like I mentioned above, a lot of any given film will be shot at the longer end of the focal lengths of a lens kit. Moving portraits are what comprise the memorable, emotional scenes. If you are paying for a famous actor, people want to see their face! In practice this means the zoom range that is often split in still cameras is the more important range for cine work. Shots that zoom through a range of 50 to 85mm are common, but most still lenses break up the design into 70mm above and below... so you see the challenge here. |
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cooltouch
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 Posts: 9096 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: |
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cooltouch wrote:
Well, after reading through your requirements a bit further, and since you seem fond of the Angenieux 10x, it occurred to me to browse eBay listings for focal ranges close to 10x. I searched on 24-200mm, 28-200mm, and 28-300mm. Got hits in all three ranges. Four for 24-200s, 293 for 28-200s, and 131 for 28-300s. The 24-200s and 28-300s typical have a 1.5 to 2 stop difference from wide to tele, whereas the 28-200s typically have only a 1 stop difference or so. Most of the lenses my search turned up were also autofocus, which might be of some advantage for you. At least they will interface with your 5DII so you will have more control options.
I know of one 28-200 lens that has a constant aperture, one I owned almost 20 years ago: a Kalimar 28-200 f/3.9. Back then it was the only wide to long tele zoom I'd ever seen with a constant aperture. It's push-pull, though. And what do you know? I found one:
Click here to see on Ebay
I tell you what -- it's not a half-bad optic. I was actually pleasantly surprised at the results I got with it. If you bid on this lens, though, you might want to double check with the seller that it's a constant f/3.9. They made a later one that was a 3.5-5.3, but this one looks like the f/3.9 model.
Perhaps there are a few other constant aperture wide-to-long-tele zooms being made now, but I'll wager they're very expensive. _________________ Michael
My Gear List: http://michaelmcbroom.com/photo/gear.html
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My Flickr Page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/11308754@N08/albums
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