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Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time!
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 11:40 pm    Post subject: Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time! Reply with quote
Greeting fellow forum members,

Some three months in the making, I am delighted to finally present my review of the Tokyo Kogaku RE. Auto-TOPCOR 58mm F/1.4.

Proclaimed by Topcon and Topcor enthusiasts to be among (to be) the greatest fast standard prime lens of its time!

It is a claim which is sure to cause some debate.

Please find below the video link for your enjoyment:

https://youtu.be/1cRvrSKYMpQ



It’s a rather long video, performance results commence around 19 minutes in for those that want to skip past the history and specifications (although you’ll miss out on some fantastic imagery and period advertising).

Please note that this is intended as being the definitive guide to the Topcor 58 1.4 lens and was compiled from extensive research, cross referencing of information (there was a tremendous amount of conflicting data), period documentation and reviews.

It is a lens with an interesting back story, manufactured by Tokyo Kogaku (later to become Topcon Corporation) who were at the leading edge of 35mm camera technology in their time.

The story of Topcon itself is fascinating, being the second oldest specialised lens manufacturer in Japan. Among my research for the Topcor lens, I have part written a script (near on novel) detailing Topcon’s history since 1932. However, two thirds of the way through, having reached 1957, and it’s getting close to three hours long. I am not sure anyone would have the desire to sit through such a long video, but if there is interest, please let me know.

Of note, much of the historical information is now lost forever, many of the original contributors having since passed away, or websites and web pages since closed or disbanded with abundant dead links.

Oh – and is it the greatest standard prime lens of its time?

Not having tested its period alternatives, I couldn’t really say.

However, in isolation, it’s pretty damn good!


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excellent work - as usual your video is very well produced. Really impressive work. 👍

Unfortunately I don‘t have experience with that lens, but I‘m sure it‘s a really good one. A number of folks here might have more to say on that though…


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nice video, it's clear a lot of effort has gone in. I have a copy of the lens but really haven't used it a lot. Of the other Topcon lenses I have tried, the 58/1.8 has impressed, in 1957 this would surely have been among the best available, and it's still impressive now. They also had several other extremely impressive optics available from quite early on, including the 135mm F2 and the 300mm F2.8 lenses, something other manufacturers could not match in the late 50s/early 60s.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like 1 Friends


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for sharing, good work 👍


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
simple.joy wrote:
Excellent work - as usual your video is very well produced. Really impressive work. 👍

Unfortunately I don‘t have experience with that lens, but I‘m sure it‘s a really good one. A number of folks here might have more to say on that though…


Many thanks for your very kind feedback, very much appreciated and encouragement to make more reviews.

Yes, it’s a good one. I realised after posting the examples that I hadn’t made any Lightroom adjustments other than some highlight and exposure corrections. The images just looked right. With my modern lenses, I’m constantly playing with the sliders to try and pull back the digital look.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
What a job! Respect.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alun Thomas wrote:
Nice video, it's clear a lot of effort has gone in. I have a copy of the lens but really haven't used it a lot. Of the other Topcon lenses I have tried, the 58/1.8 has impressed, in 1957 this would surely have been among the best available, and it's still impressive now. They also had several other extremely impressive optics available from quite early on, including the 135mm F2 and the 300mm F2.8 lenses, something other manufacturers could not match in the late 50s/early 60s.


Thanks Alun, I’ve read some reviews that the 58 1.8 outperforms the 1.4. Not something I’ve test yet. The 35 2.8 is one of the stars in the range - at its lowest, it is said to resolve 80 LP/mm - it starts where most other lenses finish off.

These are very impressive lenses still today, in their time they must have been extraordinary.

Thought you might find the price comparison from 1963 interesting:



PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time Reply with quote
DURLACHER wrote:
Greeting fellow forum members,

Some three months in the making, I am delighted to finally present my review of the Tokyo Kogaku RE. Auto-TOPCOR 58mm F/1.4.

Thanks Wink - I have not yet watched your review yet, but from looking at the first few minutes I already can see the effort going into your work. I'll comment on the film later when having watched it entirely. For time being I'll just comment your remarks on this posting.


DURLACHER wrote:
Proclaimed by Topcon and Topcor enthusiasts to be among (to be) the greatest fast standard prime lens of its time!

Certainly a true statement - however I am more interested in reality as opposed to claims made about reality. Thus I have collected and carefully compared literally hundreds of vintage MF lenses from most of the well known manufacturers.

DURLACHER wrote:
It is a claim which is sure to cause some debate.

Right. At least the claims you cite in the first two minutes of your film seem a bit ... well: fanboysh and certainly not well balanced. I'm curiuos to see what you'll present in your review later on Wink !

DURLACHER wrote:

It’s a rather long video, performance results commence around 19 minutes in for those that want to skip past the history and specifications (although you’ll miss out on some fantastic imagery and period advertising).

Please note that this is intended as being the definitive guide to the Topcor 58 1.4 lens and was compiled from extensive research, cross referencing of information (there was a tremendous amount of conflicting data), period documentation and reviews.

Contemporary lens testing was made using cameras and film. There were a lot of variable involved:

1) Are test chart and film really absolutely parallel? Spoiler: it's difficult to check, and probably sometimes was not.
2) Focusing: Is the viewfinder perfectly adjusted (any deviation will cause improper focusing). Spoiler: it rarely was/is.
3) Film NEVER was really plane (often bulging out several thenth of a millimeter in the image center) - and variable: Test results shot wide open could vary even when made with the same camera and the same lens on the same film.
4) Film thickness was variable (depending on the film used for testing)
5) Camera movements caused by shutter & (mainly) mirror movements
6) Film resolution was limited and strongly dependent on microcontrast of a given lens

Using a modern digital FF camera with fully electronic shutter and live view focusing completely eliminates the problems 2), 3), 4), 5) and 6).
Problem 1) is eliminated by targeting the camera at "infinity" objects.

For these reasons I consider carefully made "modern" tests of vintage lenses to be much more reliable than the old tests, even if pulished in renowned photo magazines. From my experience testing vintage lenses AND looking at their respective test results in old magazines I know that those test results often were just ... rubbish. That becomes evident when - in those old tests! - some really bad cheap old zoom lenses have nearly as good test results as primes. Once we compare those lenses using modern technology the differences are staggering, though.

DURLACHER wrote:

It is a lens with an interesting back story, manufactured by Tokyo Kogaku (later to become Topcon Corporation) who were at the leading edge of 35mm camera technology in their time.

Looking forward to watch your review ...! I'm sure it was a real race to get a useful SLR f1.4 normal lens around 1955-1965, as we know e. g. from the "1001 Nikkor tales" published by Nikon lens developpers Haruo Sato and Kouichi Ohshita. See story No 40 for the 1.4/5.8cm Nikkor, and story No 16 for the famouse 1.2/58mm Noct Nikkor.


DURLACHER wrote:
The story of Topcon itself is fascinating, being the second oldest specialised lens manufacturer in Japan. Among my research for the Topcor lens, I have part written a script (near on novel) detailing Topcon’s history since 1932. However, two thirds of the way through, having reached 1957, and it’s getting close to three hours long. I am not sure anyone would have the desire to sit through such a long video, but if there is interest, please let me know.

It certainly is of interest, even if a mere 50 or 100 people would watch it. I certainly would be interested.

DURLACHER wrote:

Oh – and is it the greatest standard prime lens of its time?
Not having tested its period alternatives, I couldn’t really say.

That's a severe omission Laugh 1
But we'll fix that, I'm sure!

S

EDIT: right from the beginning - without even starting to compare lenses - we can see that Topcon's optical engineers were hampered severly by the extremely small diameter of the Topcon (Exakta) bayonet mount. This was not so much a problem for slow wideangles such as the 4/20mm, the 3.5/25mm, the 2.8/28mm and the 2.8/35mm, but it was a problem for fast primes, including the RE 1.4/58 and the RE 1.7/85. Due to the small diameter of the rear lenses, both the 1.4/58 as well as the 1.7/85 have a much more asymmetrical lens section than their competitors. That in itself was a huge disdvantage, and its consequences can easily be seen when comparing the Topcor RE 1.4/58 with the contemporary Minolta Auto Rokkor 1.4/58.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm curious about the Contarex Planar 50/2 now, after seeing the prices 😊


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
DURLACHER wrote:
Greeting fellow forum members,

Some three months in the making, I am delighted to finally present my review of the Tokyo Kogaku RE. Auto-TOPCOR 58mm F/1.4.

Thanks Wink - I have not yet watched your review yet, but from looking at the first few minutes I already can see the effort going into your work. I'll comment on the film later when having watched it entirely. For time being I'll just comment your remarks on this posting.


DURLACHER wrote:
Proclaimed by Topcon and Topcor enthusiasts to be among (to be) the greatest fast standard prime lens of its time!

Certainly a true statement - however I am more interested in reality as opposed to claims made about reality. Thus I have collected and carefully compared literally hundreds of vintage MF lenses from most of the well known manufacturers.

DURLACHER wrote:
It is a claim which is sure to cause some debate.

Right. At least the claims you cite in the first two minutes of your film seem a bit ... well: fanboysh and certainly not well balanced. I'm curiuos to see what you'll present in your review later on Wink !

DURLACHER wrote:

It’s a rather long video, performance results commence around 19 minutes in for those that want to skip past the history and specifications (although you’ll miss out on some fantastic imagery and period advertising).

Please note that this is intended as being the definitive guide to the Topcor 58 1.4 lens and was compiled from extensive research, cross referencing of information (there was a tremendous amount of conflicting data), period documentation and reviews.

Contemporary lens testing was made using cameras and film. There were a lot of variable involved:

1) Are test chart and film really absolutely parallel? Spoiler: it's difficult to check, and probably sometimes was not.
2) Focusing: Is the viewfinder perfectly adjusted (any deviation will cause improper focusing). Spoiler: it rarely was/is.
3) Film NEVER was really plane (often bulging out several thenth of a millimeter in the image center) - and variable: Test results shot wide open could vary even when made with the same camera and the same lens on the same film.
4) Film thickness was variable (depending on the film used for testing)
5) Camera movements caused by shutter & (mainly) mirror movements
6) Film resolution was limited and strongly dependent on microcontrast of a given lens

Using a modern digital FF camera with fully electronic shutter and live view focusing completely eliminates the problems 2), 3), 4), 5) and 6).
Problem 1) is eliminated by targeting the camera at "infinity" objects.

For these reasons I consider carefully made "modern" tests of vintage lenses to be much more reliable than the old tests, even if pulished in renowned photo magazines. From my experience testing vintage lenses AND looking at their respective test results in old magazines I know that those test results often were just ... rubbish. That becomes evident when - in those old tests! - some really bad cheap old zoom lenses have nearly as good test results as primes. Once we compare those lenses using modern technology the differences are staggering, though.

DURLACHER wrote:

It is a lens with an interesting back story, manufactured by Tokyo Kogaku (later to become Topcon Corporation) who were at the leading edge of 35mm camera technology in their time.

Looking forward to watch your review ...! I'm sure it was a real race to get a useful SLR f1.4 normal lens around 1955-1965, as we know e. g. from the "1001 Nikkor tales" published by Nikon lens developpers Haruo Sato and Kouichi Ohshita. See story No 40 for the 1.4/5.8cm Nikkor, and story No 16 for the famouse 1.2/58mm Noct Nikkor.


DURLACHER wrote:
The story of Topcon itself is fascinating, being the second oldest specialised lens manufacturer in Japan. Among my research for the Topcor lens, I have part written a script (near on novel) detailing Topcon’s history since 1932. However, two thirds of the way through, having reached 1957, and it’s getting close to three hours long. I am not sure anyone would have the desire to sit through such a long video, but if there is interest, please let me know.

It certainly is of interest, even if a mere 50 or 100 people would watch it. I certainly would be interested.

DURLACHER wrote:

Oh – and is it the greatest standard prime lens of its time?
Not having tested its period alternatives, I couldn’t really say.

That's a severe omission Laugh 1
But we'll fix that, I'm sure!

S

EDIT: right from the beginning - without even starting to compare lenses - we can see that Topcon's optical engineers were hampered severly by the extremely small diameter of the Topcon (Exakta) bayonet mount. This was not so much a problem for slow wideangles such as the 4/20mm, the 3.5/25mm, the 2.8/28mm and the 2.8/35mm, but it was a problem for fast primes, including the RE 1.4/58 and the RE 1.7/85. Due to the small diameter of the rear lenses, both the 1.4/58 as well as the 1.7/85 have a much more asymmetrical lens section than their competitors. That in itself was a huge disdvantage, and its consequences can easily be seen when comparing the Topcor RE 1.4/58 with the contemporary Minolta Auto Rokkor 1.4/58.



Brilliant reply, thank you so much for your insightful input.

As I was reading your comments about period lens reviews and the variables at play, I immediately thought such limitations are mostly alleviated with use of modern digital cameras, specifically with the application of focus peaking - only to note your concurrence.

Noted with regards to the limitations of the lens mount diameter, some of the articles referenced suggested this being a major contributing factor towards the demise of Topcon (along with mediocre marketing compared to Nikon and inability to embrace new technological advancements). I was unsure whether to include such details in this video, at 29 minutes long I’m probably pushing most viewers attention capabilities.

However, information has been included in the Topcon history script, chaptered demise of Topcon.

Grateful for your encouragement, I’ll persevere with the project. It’s an important and relatively unknown piece of camera history.

Hope you enjoy the video and grateful for any feedback or additional information you might provide.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time Reply with quote
DURLACHER wrote:

Hope you enjoy the video and grateful for any feedback or additional information you might provide.


I'll take my time this evening and watch it carefully!

S


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
I'm curious about the Contarex Planar 50/2 now, after seeing the prices 😊

I would suggest getting a 55/1.4. Wink


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
caspert79 wrote:
I'm curious about the Contarex Planar 50/2 now, after seeing the prices 😊


Gee ... I got my own RE 1.4/58mm together with an Topcon RE super, RE 4/20mm and RE 2.8/100mm for about CHF 250.--, about ten years ago. Happy times!

The RE 1.4/58 and the 2.8/100 now seem around 300.-- each, the 4/20 around 600.-- ...

S


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
caspert79 wrote:
I'm curious about the Contarex Planar 50/2 now, after seeing the prices 😊


Gee ... I got my own RE 1.4/58mm together with an Topcon RE super, RE 4/20mm and RE 2.8/100mm for about CHF 250.--, about ten years ago. Happy times!

The RE 1.4/58 and the 2.8/100 now seem around 300.-- each, the 4/20 around 600.-- ...

S


I've seen the 58mm 1.4 silver in 8,5/10 shape selling for 480 and i was tempted to sell it, but it would be hard to get another copy in the future ,so.... I'll keep it.
Prices are going crazy nowadays.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:

Prices are going crazy nowadays.

Depends on what you are collecting. Early Minolta AF lenses e. g. are extremely cheap at the moment, especially given their (better) performance compared to most vintage MF lenses. I recently my MinAF 28-70mm G lens for free (from a local photo store), and they are selling for CHF 150-200 locally these days. It's a most beautiful lens, with large aspherical elements and an extremely well made full-metal barrel. Just to give you an example.

S


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The downside to testing antique lenses for technical comparisons using modern equipment is the mostly unknown history of the lenses between factory new and now.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
jamaeolus wrote:
The downside to testing antique lenses for technical comparisons using modern equipment is the mostly unknown history of the lenses between factory new and now.


There a sad reality for part of vintage lenses that have been sitting in a drawer without getting much attention and waiting to be rescued . Many of us have get to find a small part of these gems,I guess . The amazing part is having some of these lenses working just like new. That really proofs that humanity has an amazing virtue of developing small and fine things (without computers) that could last decades or centuries.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kiddo wrote:
jamaeolus wrote:
The downside to testing antique lenses for technical comparisons using modern equipment is the mostly unknown history of the lenses between factory new and now.


There a sad reality for part of vintage lenses that have been sitting in a drawer without getting much attention and waiting to be rescued . Many of us have get to find a small part of these gems,I guess . The amazing part is having some of these lenses working just like new. That really proofs that humanity has an amazing virtue of developing small and fine things (without computers) that could last decades or centuries.


I aware of this, of course. Good news is that most of the lenses I use for testing look pretty much like new. That in itself of course is no guarantee that they are like new. Interesting news comes from testing a several series of lenses. Here a re a few examples:

a) Minolta AF 4-4.5/28-135mm - very complicated five group zoom mechanism. All seven tested sample perform identically (24 MP FF)
b) Minolta MD 3.5-4.5/35-70mm (MD-II, MD-III, MD-III Macro): about a dozen samples tested; slightly different performance for each variant, but identical performance "within" each variant
c) Minolta MD-III 1.7/50mm: ten samples tested, identical performance
d) Mamyia E 3.5/135mm: variable performance, probably due to inadequate quality control (ten samples)

Sometimes I use two samples of the same lens for lens tests. Having two samples with an identical performance pretty much excludes an "outlier" test result. Of course it doesn't guarantee that all other sampleof the lens will have the same performance, especially if it's a "bad sample" which is sold/bought/sold again/ bought again ... you know what I mean Wink

Some problems arise when testing a lens with known manufacturing problems such as the decaying slide bearings used in many Canon FD and nFD lenses.

S


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:

Contemporary lens testing was made using cameras and film. There were a lot of variable involved:

1) Are test chart and film really absolutely parallel? Spoiler: it's difficult to check, and probably sometimes was not.
2) Focusing: Is the viewfinder perfectly adjusted (any deviation will cause improper focusing). Spoiler: it rarely was/is.
3) Film NEVER was really plane (often bulging out several thenth of a millimeter in the image center) - and variable: Test results shot wide open could vary even when made with the same camera and the same lens on the same film.
4) Film thickness was variable (depending on the film used for testing)
5) Camera movements caused by shutter & (mainly) mirror movements
6) Film resolution was limited and strongly dependent on microcontrast of a given lens

Using a modern digital FF camera with fully electronic shutter and live view focusing completely eliminates the problems 2), 3), 4), 5) and 6).
Problem 1) is eliminated by targeting the camera at "infinity" objects.

For these reasons I consider carefully made "modern" tests of vintage lenses to be much more reliable than the old tests, even if pulished in renowned photo magazines. From my experience testing vintage lenses AND looking at their respective test results in old magazines I know that those test results often were just ... rubbish. That becomes evident when - in those old tests! - some really bad cheap old zoom lenses have nearly as good test results as primes. Once we compare those lenses using modern technology the differences are staggering, though.



All good points, however it should be noted that many magazines were in a position to use other methods to test some lens properties. For instance, Modern Photography magazine routinely describe using an optical bench test as well as slide film, while Popular Photography mention a 'star test' when discussing their methodology. It is true that it's much easier now, especially for an amateur photographer, to test the properties of lenses, although I also believe many amateur tests are also of only limited overall use.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2023 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Tokyo Kogaku RE Auto TOPCOR 58mm F1.4 - best of its time Reply with quote
Alun Thomas wrote:

All good points, however it should be noted that many magazines were in a position to use other methods to test some lens properties. For instance, Modern Photography magazine routinely describe using an optical bench test as well as slide film, while Popular Photography mention a 'star test' when discussing their methodology. It is true that it's much easier now, especially for an amateur photographer, to test the properties of lenses, although I also believe many amateur tests are also of only limited overall use.


I know, of course, about the optical measurements in MoPho tests. While they are interesting to read, I often struggle to relate their results to the lens tested. Example? Minolta MD 4/17mm. Nearly free from distortion according to their test (<1%), but very visible complex dirtortion when I shoot with the lens, both at infinity as well as at short ranges.

Even more disturbing are the test results of many vintage zooms. Often they have nearly identical test results as corresponding primes which doesn't fit to my experience as well.

S


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some corrections and extensions.

The Macro Auto-Topcor 58/3.5 was not released in 1963. The short-mount Macro-Topcor 58/3.5 was an early lens, as was the Macro-Topcor 135/4.

I think the focusing stud and red N on the beauty ring are specific to the Topcor lenses for use on the P-3 Orion sub-hunter planes. Also the infinity lock, as in most cases these lenses would only be used at infinity focus. The lenses and cameras used on those planes are often beat to hell. They were probably often dropped on the floor of the cabin. Repaired cameras from P-3 Orion service will often have an assortment of parts from different generations of the camera, and plenty of dents on the corners.

I don't think these lens adaptations were used in other U.S. Navy applications.

Your picture of the disassembled 58/1.4 focusing mount shows the reason for the short path for grease migration. The two slots that line up with the anti-rotation guides for the inner part of the lens go all the way through that part. On no other Topcor lens does that happen, it's just a groove on the inside of that part. That's the "short cut" path for decomposing helical grease to reach the diaphragm. Plus, due to the all-aluminum helical, there are special requirements on the grease, the other lenses with one part of the helical in brass are naturally slippery, and need less aggressive lubrication.

Well, maybe the 85/1.8 has the same lube short-cut. I've never dared take mine apart, and it did need a couple of repairs for oily diaphragm.

This design quirk kept the diameter of the lens down, and all-aluminum kept the weight down.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
John Shriver wrote:
Some corrections and extensions.

The Macro Auto-Topcor 58/3.5 was not released in 1963. The short-mount Macro-Topcor 58/3.5 was an early lens, as was the Macro-Topcor 135/4.

I think the focusing stud and red N on the beauty ring are specific to the Topcor lenses for use on the P-3 Orion sub-hunter planes. Also the infinity lock, as in most cases these lenses would only be used at infinity focus. The lenses and cameras used on those planes are often beat to hell. They were probably often dropped on the floor of the cabin. Repaired cameras from P-3 Orion service will often have an assortment of parts from different generations of the camera, and plenty of dents on the corners.

I don't think these lens adaptations were used in other U.S. Navy applications.

Your picture of the disassembled 58/1.4 focusing mount shows the reason for the short path for grease migration. The two slots that line up with the anti-rotation guides for the inner part of the lens go all the way through that part. On no other Topcor lens does that happen, it's just a groove on the inside of that part. That's the "short cut" path for decomposing helical grease to reach the diaphragm. Plus, due to the all-aluminum helical, there are special requirements on the grease, the other lenses with one part of the helical in brass are naturally slippery, and need less aggressive lubrication.

Well, maybe the 85/1.8 has the same lube short-cut. I've never dared take mine apart, and it did need a couple of repairs for oily diaphragm.

This design quirk kept the diameter of the lens down, and all-aluminum kept the weight down.



Thanks John, greatly appreciate the corrections. There is a lot of conflicting information posted about Topcon and Topcor lenses, particularly with regard to the US Navy. Great to get insight from someone that knows!

I was contemplating whether to make mention of the navy cameras and lenses abuse, the engravings command a premium but often the condition is compromised.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi John, thought you might find the link below interesting (you might need Google translate):

http://www.camaracoleccion.es/Nikon_F_ks_81a.html

Topic #6 specifically refers to Topcon cameras:

The Nikon F KS-81A were not the only cameras that traveled to Spain aboard the submarines transferred by the US Navy. Two of the submarines also carried the famous Beseler Topcon Super D US NAVY (Figure 14). The Topcon brand enjoys the privilege of manufacturing the first SLR camera with automatic TTL light metering. We are referring to the 1963 Topcon RE Super. These cameras were manufactured by Tokyo Kogaku KK, founded in 1932 as part of the SEIKO Corporation …………

Reference to use on the P-3 Orions ties in with my own research, I think this was the principal application. However, there was documentation that use extended beyond this - as per the above link and some first hand experiences reported by ex navy personnel as discovered in the myriad of research.

Last edited by DURLACHER on Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:52 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
John Shriver wrote:
Some corrections and extensions.

The Macro Auto-Topcor 58/3.5 was not released in 1963. The short-mount Macro-Topcor 58/3.5 was an early lens, as was the Macro-Topcor 135/4.

I think the focusing stud and red N on the beauty ring are specific to the Topcor lenses for use on the P-3 Orion sub-hunter planes. Also the infinity lock, as in most cases these lenses would only be used at infinity focus. The lenses and cameras used on those planes are often beat to hell. They were probably often dropped on the floor of the cabin. Repaired cameras from P-3 Orion service will often have an assortment of parts from different generations of the camera, and plenty of dents on the corners.

I don't think these lens adaptations were used in other U.S. Navy applications.

Your picture of the disassembled 58/1.4 focusing mount shows the reason for the short path for grease migration. The two slots that line up with the anti-rotation guides for the inner part of the lens go all the way through that part. On no other Topcor lens does that happen, it's just a groove on the inside of that part. That's the "short cut" path for decomposing helical grease to reach the diaphragm. Plus, due to the all-aluminum helical, there are special requirements on the grease, the other lenses with one part of the helical in brass are naturally slippery, and need less aggressive lubrication.

Well, maybe the 85/1.8 has the same lube short-cut. I've never dared take mine apart, and it did need a couple of repairs for oily diaphragm.

This design quirk kept the diameter of the lens down, and all-aluminum kept the weight down.



Hi John, thought you might find the link below interesting (you might need Google translate):

http://www.camaracoleccion.es/Nikon_F_ks_81a.html

Topic #6 specifically refers to Topcon cameras:

The Nikon F KS-81A were not the only cameras that traveled to Spain aboard the submarines transferred by the US Navy. Two of the submarines also carried the famous Beseler Topcon Super D US NAVY (Figure 14). The Topcon brand enjoys the privilege of manufacturing the first SLR camera with automatic TTL light metering. We are referring to the 1963 Topcon RE Super. These cameras were manufactured by Tokyo Kogaku KK, founded in 1932 as part of the SEIKO Corporation …………

Reference to use on the P-3 Orions ties in with my own research, I think this was the principal application. However, there was documentation that use extended beyond this - as per the above link and some first hand experiences reported by ex navy personnel as discovered in the myriad of research.
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