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the choice of bigger format folder
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:34 am    Post subject: the choice of bigger format folder Reply with quote
Questions for people who have experienced the following cameras;

- Moskva 5,

- Voigtländer RF,

- and Voigtländer Bessa 1

Which one had 'the best' lens in terms of sharpness?

I didn't have the opportunity to thoroughly use any of these cameras as I would have liked for landscapes (kind of/similar to Ansel Adams),
but I need to make a decision and stick with one and sell other 2,
find some the time and get out of the concrete surrounded life for good.
Or for a longer period


PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: the choice of bigger format folder Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:

I didn't have the opportunity to thoroughly use any of these cameras as I would have liked for landscapes (kind of/similar to Ansel Adams),
but I need to make a decision and stick with one and sell other 2


I can't really answer you quesition, but ...

1) Check the three cameras yourself (and kindly inform us about the results, too ...). No need for a fancy subject, but a good opportunity to practise a reliably and reproducible workstyle. Get three rolls of b/w film, and shoot three images each (wide open, f8, f16) of a landscape / archtitecture scenery, plus three of a "close up" (e. g. persons). Examoning the negatives should give you a good idea about the performance of these cameras and their lenses

2) Don't expect wonders à la "Ansel Adams". Early on when I received my very first 24 MP FF Sony A900 I compared it with a Zeiss Super Ikonta 6x9cm, equipped with Zeiss Tessar 3.5/10.5 cm. I was pretty astoished to see that the 24 MP FF camera was outperforming the Ikonta / Tessar by far.

3) The famous Ansel Adams images ususally were taken on 8x10" film. Those cameras are huge ...!

Again - check your cameras carefully and let us know Wink

S


PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2024 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Moskva 5 was a Super-Ikonta descendant, and is ready for 6x9
I dont know whether the lens (105 mm) is a tessar clone?

The Voigtlanders, which lens do you have in those?
Skopars are decent and quite sharp if stopped down to f/8 or so

I'm a sucker for the cursive V cameras, so if you decide to sell that Bessa let me know


PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
@stevemark

well .. this 1) -> Sure, I know this; it's a no-brainer.
However, it takes too much time, and it's very, very boring for me.
That's why I asked it the way I did.

2) i'll correct it "I want to spend some quality time in nature/mountains, and I also want to use a 6x9 format camera in case I see something worth of photographing .. that could be reassembled as Ansel Adams type of taking pictures" Smile

@titrisol70
yes its a Tessar sold as Industar-24, 105mm f 3.5 lens.
Voightlanders are with plane all-round skopars, not heliars ( = internet wet dream voightlander II)

what is "cursive V camera" btw?

if you are interested .. i suppose you would like to see some pics of cameras Smile


PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Voigtlander used to stamp a cursive V in the front of the cameras, in their logo
Skopars are Tessars made by V, very good lenses


PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2024 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: the choice of bigger format folder Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:

- Moskva 5,



I had quite mediocre, to say no worse, experience with "Moskow" cameras in general, and their lenses in particular. But generally it is believed, that 2 and 4 are better then 5 models.

alex_d wrote:
- Voigtländer RF,


I have one prewar with uncounted Heliar. It is evidently better then even Super Ikontas. To leave Moskow camera alone. And my experience with Heliar lenses were very nice. However, I believe that postwar cameras with the coated lens should be preferred. [/b]


PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
titrisol70 wrote:
Voigtlander used to stamp a cursive V in the front of the cameras, in their logo
Skopars are Tessars made by V, very good lenses


on non of my voigtlanders is anywhere a V to be seen, on this bessa RF is unclear what lens is it

I think i have some V's on old alu Jena tessar's



Quote:
I believe that postwar cameras with the coated lens should be preferred.


a postwar folder with coated lens ? maybe only as is a Fuji


PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:

on non of my voigtlanders is anywhere a V to be seen, on this bessa RF is unclear what lens is it

Not on the font?


Not even on the name at the top of the camera?


PostWar Skopars, were recalculated and coated and marked as Color-Skopar
https://web.archive.org/web/20120710041141/http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Bessa_RF_histo.html

The 105/3.5 is very capable

Last edited by titrisol70 on Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:


a postwar folder with coated lens ? maybe only as is a Fuji


Voigtlander Bessa II 6x9 Rangefinder Color Heliar 105mm f3.5

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cywAAOSwBKFnGFOQ/s-l1600.webp


PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: the choice of bigger format folder Reply with quote
[quote="stevemark"]
alex_d wrote:


3) The famous Ansel Adams images ususally were taken on 8x10" film. Those cameras are huge ...!

S


4 x5 would be a good compromise


PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm. I'm a certified ignorant barbarian. I took the course, passed the exam and have the certificate.

As a CIB, I find the cameras the OP listed not very interesting or even useful. I have a couple of similar folding cameras that might fit in a pocket, including an Ensign Selfix 820 for "6x9," a poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 3.25", and a Voigtlaender Perkeo II for "6x6," a metric approximation to 2.25" x 2.25". Both have fixed lenses, are therefore somewhat limited. I've never got a satisfactorily sharp image with either, regardless of aperture, shutter speed and support. A Perkeo print, soft or not, is up on the wall. Sharpness is overrated.

I prefer interchangeable lens cameras even though 6x9ers don't fit most pockets. For example, the humble Century Graphic, which can be used without effort with lenses as short as the 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon and as long as ~ 250 mm tele lenses. In addition, it has minimal decentering movements, of which the most useful is ~ 19 mm of front rise. This is somewhat useful for eliminating boring foregrounds and converging verticals.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
how much do you want to spend?

Click here to see on Ebay


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:


I prefer interchangeable lens cameras even though 6x9ers don't fit most pockets. .


There is description of my considering of similar dilemma:

https://forum.mflenses.com/linhof-super-technika-vs-topcon-horseman-t84369.html


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex, thanks for the reply and the link.

The Linhof and Horseman cameras you wrote about are more capable that the Graphic I mentioned. In particular, they have cammed rangefinders, unlike the Graphic, whose rangefinders (two different ones were fitted to 2x3 Graphics) are really usable with only one lens. Against that, the little Graphic is less expensive and can be focused using the ground glass.

All of these press/technical cameras will fit only in enormous pockets. For some users this is a serious disadvantage.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:


All of these press/technical cameras will fit only in enormous pockets.


Anyway all of them really need - for the proper results, a tripod. Which would not go in any pocket.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2024 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:
Alex, thanks for the reply and the link.

The Linhof and Horseman cameras you wrote about are more capable that the Graphic I mentioned.


There is my story with the Graphic

https://forum.mflenses.com/speed-graphic-aero-ektar-t81232.html


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
danfromm wrote:
Hmm.
...
I find the cameras the OP listed not very interesting or even useful. I have a couple of similar folding cameras ...
...
I've never got a satisfactorily sharp image with either, regardless of aperture, shutter speed and support. ... Sharpness is overrated.



Exacly my experience too, after careful testing of my Super Ikonta 6x9cm equipped with CZJ Tessar 3.5/10.5 cm.



LittleAlex wrote:
danfromm wrote:


All of these press/technical cameras will fit only in enormous pockets.


Anyway all of them really need - for the proper results, a tripod. Which would not go in any pocket.


Indeed.

That's why I use my 24 MP FF DSLRs with in-body stabilizsation - or the 50 MP class mirrorless FF cameras, also with in-body stabillization ... You can get the resolution of a 4 x 5 inch slide with those digital cameras, even without tripod (as long as there's dayllight).

S


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
LittleAlex wrote:
danfromm wrote:


All of these press/technical cameras will fit only in enormous pockets.


Anyway all of them really need - for the proper results, a tripod. Which would not go in any pocket.


They were made to be shot hand-held and were used that way by working professionals.

Graphics' tubular viewfinders accept masks for other focal lengths than normal, adjust for parallax and even accept a supplementary lens for w/a lenses. Graphics' wire frame viewfinders also adjust for various focal lengths. Very useful cameras even though not as capable as more modern equivalents.

Using movements with press/technical cameras does indeed require a tripod. So does close-up work. In theory a focusing frame should make close-up work possible hand-held. In theory. In practice, at least for me, unusable.

stevemark's comments are right. In practice digital is much easier to use and yields results that are better than good enough.


PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Primo Voco

Let's see the comments, in a nutshell (randomized);
- '..not sharp..'
- ' use 8 x 10 ..'
- '.. you can't do it/you should not use it because I can't do it ..'
- '.. not sharp..'
- ' ..use 4 x 5..'
- '.. you need multiple lenses..'
- ' .. sharpness is overrated..'
- '.. use 5k - 10k worth of modern digital tools to have a sharp ..'
- '..not sharp..'
- '.. needs stabilization..'
- '..not sharp..'


PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2024 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:
Primo Voco

Let's see the comments, in a nutshell (randomized);
...
- '.. use 5k - 10k worth of modern digital tools to have a sharp ..'
...


Wrong citation indeed.

Those 24 MP SLRs I still use today for high quality calendar photos (40x60cm print size) are selling for 200-300 CHF (EUR/USD) here in Switzerland. And the corresponding Zeiss 2.8/24-70mm goes for 250-350 CHF. Certainly not 5k - 10k worth!!

I hope this clarification is useful.

S


EDIT
A Voigtländer Bessa I 6x9cm with f3.5 Skopar or a Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta 6x9cm with f3.5 Tessar is as expensive as a used 24MP SLR these days ... so if you want excellent high res images, the choice is easy. Add a cheap MinAF 1.7/50mm to a used Sony A900, take images at f5.6 and get the resolution of a 4x5 inch slide ...!


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
@stevemark

i red somewhere ' a sony and mid format (digital)..' and that was my association to 5-10k

now i read that sony a900 is an 'ancient' digital camera. Im not aware much of sonies except that they could be very expensive (when new)

Anyway, that was not the reply that 'helps' me making a choice; instead, it shifts the problem to another path and possibly creates more hardware issues, and im trying to get rid of the hardware.

I often notice on this forum (I could be guilty of this as well..) that there are rarely direct answers to the problems posed.
Instead, people tend to offer alternative solutions, explaining that there are other ways to approach the issue.


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
alex_d wrote:
@stevemark

i red somewhere ' a sony and mid format (digital)..' and that was my association to 5-10k

now i read that sony a900 is an 'ancient' digital camera. Im not aware much of sonies except that they could be very expensive (when new)

Anyway, that was not the reply that 'helps' me making a choice; instead, it shifts the problem to another path and possibly creates more hardware issues, and im trying to get rid of the hardware.

I often notice on this forum (I could be guilty of this as well..) that there are rarely direct answers to the problems posed.
Instead, people tend to offer alternative solutions, explaining that there are other ways to approach the issue.


Alex, if the V cameras have Skopars then they are equivalent to the Industar so optically the same ->Image quality is going to be very similar (if they are all in good shape)

Walk around your neighborhood with each camera and pretend to take pics, see which one feels better in your hand, in your pocket, etc and then choose based on that
While hiking that feel and the weight difference are very important (I prefer the 6x6 Isolettes becasue of that)


PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex, since you had written ...

alex_d wrote:
Questions for people who have experienced the following cameras;
...
Which one had 'the best' lens in terms of sharpness?
... I would have liked for landscapes (kind of/similar to Ansel Adams),


... I (wrongly) assumed that you were looking for a camera capable of shooting images "similar to Ansel Adams" - that would mean high resolution and a wide dynamic range.


alex_d wrote:
@stevemark
...
Anyway, that was not the reply that 'helps' me making a choice; instead, it shifts the problem to another path and possibly creates more hardware issues, and im trying to get rid of the hardware.


I didn't realize that you main issue was getting rid of hardware ...

Sorry about that misunderstanding.

S


PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2024 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark,

Indeed, it's about getting rid of too much hardware and keeping only 'the best' items:
if it is possible to choose it without really enjoying them all.

Well, i made my assumptions, you made your too, so we’re even on that one.
As I mentioned earlier, reading is one thing, understanding is another, and replying is yet another.
Very often, these three processes do not work together in harmony.
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