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The Best Bokeh Among Manual Lenses?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:46 pm    Post subject: The Best Bokeh Among Manual Lenses? Reply with quote
Hi Everyone:

Unfortunately, my much loved Zeiss Jena Biotar 75mm f/1.5 recently slipped out of my camera bag and broke. It is now unusable. I was looking to replace it but it has gotten prohibitively expensive to purchase. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a manual lens of any aperture which likewise has a dreamy bokeh, and gives images a kind of quirky artistry, as the Biotar does wide-open? The only other candidate that I have personally used, and which has comparable bokeh, has been the Helios40 85mm f1.5, albeit with a slightly warmer tone. But this lens is quite heavy. If there is an AF lens whose bokeh you exceedingly like, please mention it as well.

Thank you!

-Charles


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
What exatly has happened to the Biotar? It's an expensive "historical" lens, and it may be worth repairing.

I bought my own copy back in 2010, and even then it was a whopping CHF 800.-- (I did need it for writing an article to be published in the Sony Fotospiegel).

I had it serviced at Fotoservice Olbricht in Görlitz - a very competent and reasonably priced small company. Andrea Schönfelder - who is doing the work right now - runs the company in the third generation. Servicing my Biotar 1.5/7.5cm was EUR 100.-- back then, but could be more right now, especially when the lens barrel is damaged.

https://fotoservice-olbrich.de/

S


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Best?" Ask 100 people, and you'll get 100 different answers, as it's completely subjective.

I think if you are looking for something with the closest bokeh to what you got from the Biotar, the Helios equivalent is probably the best semi-affordable bet. If you're looking for something different/new, do you have any ideas of what kind of look you are trying to achieve? Dreamy/quirky can describe a lot of different things.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianSVP wrote:
"Best?" Ask 100 people, and you'll get 100 different answers, as it's completely subjective.

I think if you are looking for something with the closest bokeh to what you got from the Biotar, the Helios equivalent is probably the best semi-affordable bet. If you're looking for something different/new, do you have any ideas of what kind of look you are trying to achieve? Dreamy/quirky can describe a lot of different things.

I am pretty sure you'll get at least 101 answers if you ask 100 ppl. Wink

There is not best bokeh without defining what is best. Sometime I would say a lens with perfect spherical correction lens has boring bokeh while sometimes it is the best one you will want.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
What exatly has happened to the Biotar? It's an expensive "historical" lens, and it may be worth repairing.

I bought my own copy back in 2010, and even then it was a whopping CHF 800.-- (I did need it for writing an article to be published in the Sony Fotospiegel).

I had it serviced at Fotoservice Olbricht in Görlitz - a very competent and reasonably priced small company. Andrea Schönfelder - who is doing the work right now - runs the company in the third generation. Servicing my Biotar 1.5/7.5cm was EUR 100.-- back then, but could be more right now, especially when the lens barrel is damaged.

https://fotoservice-olbrich.de/

S


Hi Steve:

In terms of my accident with the Biotar, the M42 mount broke off leaving only the older initial EXA Mount. I have two adapters for EXA-LM, but both Exakta adapters don't fit. This lens was manufactured in 1947, but I think modern Exakta threads are the same as the old ones. The problem is that I live in India. I doubt I will find someone who will refurbish the lens again with an M42 mount. I think it is a sophisticated job, and they will offer to do it even if they don't have a clue how to. Maybe it is worth looking around anyways.

-Charles


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianSVP wrote:
"Best?" Ask 100 people, and you'll get 100 different answers, as it's completely subjective.

I think if you are looking for something with the closest bokeh to what you got from the Biotar, the Helios equivalent is probably the best semi-affordable bet. If you're looking for something different/new, do you have any ideas of what kind of look you are trying to achieve? Dreamy/quirky can describe a lot of different things.


Thanks, Brian. I simply mean soft, smooth and not busy looking. Something that creates a good separation between the subject and background. I like that almost 3D effect I got with the Biotar wide open. The only lens I found so far with nice enough bokeh has been the Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 Distagon ZM.

-Charles


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
BrianSVP wrote:
"Best?" Ask 100 people, and you'll get 100 different answers, as it's completely subjective.

I think if you are looking for something with the closest bokeh to what you got from the Biotar, the Helios equivalent is probably the best semi-affordable bet. If you're looking for something different/new, do you have any ideas of what kind of look you are trying to achieve? Dreamy/quirky can describe a lot of different things.

I am pretty sure you'll get at least 101 answers if you ask 100 ppl. Wink

There is not best bokeh without defining what is best. Sometime I would say a lens with perfect spherical correction lens has boring bokeh while sometimes it is the best one you will want.



Calvin, I would say creamy, smooth, and not harsh or busy. Something that creates a good contrast between the subject and background. I like that almost 3D effect I got with the Biotar wide open.

Thanks,

-Charles


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well there is the 75mm Biotar replica from TTartisan. Looks like a great lens.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2025 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:

In terms of my accident with the Biotar, the M42 mount broke off leaving only the older initial EXA Mount.

What do you mean by "broke off"? Is the (original) Exa/Exacta mount undamaged? If so: There are plenty of "exakta to M42 adapters" availbel cheaply. Just google them ...


charley5 wrote:
I have two adapters for EXA-LM, but both Exakta adapters don't fit.

Strange! What exactly doesn't fit?! Was the old adapter just glued to the Exakta mount? Is residual glue the problem? Or is the diamater of the Exakta mount on the Biotar too big tio fit your adapters?

I had a Zeiss 2.8/180mm Sonnar (early postwar like your Biotar) adapted to Sony A mount - no major problems there, and M42 should be even easier !

Quote:
The problem is that I live in India. I doubt I will find someone who will refurbish the lens again with an M42 mount. I think it is a sophisticated job

No, it isn't. Carefully look at your lens and the adapters you have and - maybe - order another CORRECT adapter. It should work unless your lens has a damaged Exakta mount.

S


PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
charley5 wrote:

In terms of my accident with the Biotar, the M42 mount broke off leaving only the older initial EXA Mount.

What do you mean by "broke off"? Is the (original) Exa/Exacta mount undamaged? If so: There are plenty of "exakta to M42 adapters" availbel cheaply. Just google them ...


charley5 wrote:
I have two adapters for EXA-LM, but both Exakta adapters don't fit.

Strange! What exactly doesn't fit?! Was the old adapter just glued to the Exakta mount? Is residual glue the problem? Or is the diamater of the Exakta mount on the Biotar too big tio fit your adapters?

I had a Zeiss 2.8/180mm Sonnar (early postwar like your Biotar) adapted to Sony A mount - no major problems there, and M42 should be even easier !

Quote:
The problem is that I live in India. I doubt I will find someone who will refurbish the lens again with an M42 mount. I think it is a sophisticated job

No, it isn't. Carefully look at your lens and the adapters you have and - maybe - order another CORRECT adapter. It should work unless your lens has a damaged Exakta mount.

S


I tried an Exacta adapter which I mated also to the Techart Autofocus Adapter and then to a Sony camera. It is not a question of adapters. I think the original Exakta mount on the Biotar was indeed damaged.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
blotafton wrote:
Well there is the 75mm Biotar replica from TTartisan. Looks like a great lens.


Wow. Thank you! I'll check it out!


PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I second that TTArtisan 75mm f/1.5. It's a modern take on Biotar.

There are plenty real-world pictures available in the dedicated Flickr group.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
y wrote:
I second that TTArtisan 75mm f/1.5. It's a modern take on Biotar.

There are plenty real-world pictures available in the dedicated Flickr group.


Thank you. I had already checked out that group. Unfortunately, there are not many images taken wide open. I personally don't like the heavily swirly bokeh, and I wonder if it is more prominent than the original.


PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2025 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
y wrote:
I second that TTArtisan 75mm f/1.5. It's a modern take on Biotar.

There are plenty real-world pictures available in the dedicated Flickr group.


Thank you. I had already checked out that group. Unfortunately, there are not many images taken wide open. I personally don't like the heavily swirly bokeh, and I wonder if it is more prominent than the original.


No, it is very similar to the original. It is only swirly at a certain distance (as the original). It also covers GFX.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
y wrote:
I second that TTArtisan 75mm f/1.5. It's a modern take on Biotar.

There are plenty real-world pictures available in the dedicated Flickr group.


Thank you. I had already checked out that group. Unfortunately, there are not many images taken wide open. I personally don't like the heavily swirly bokeh, and I wonder if it is more prominent than the original.


Just took a look at the group, and there are several good wide open examples right at the beginning of the stream:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186860472@N04/54286991288/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186860472@N04/54285864672/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/188479097@N07/54290242681/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186860472@N04/54271230201/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16001978@N08/54252469441/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29949005@N02/54251312862/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16001978@N08/54246265341/in/pool-14926373@N22/

Id say the swirl is there....


PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianSVP wrote:
charley5 wrote:
y wrote:
I second that TTArtisan 75mm f/1.5. It's a modern take on Biotar.

There are plenty real-world pictures available in the dedicated Flickr group.


Thank you. I had already checked out that group. Unfortunately, there are not many images taken wide open. I personally don't like the heavily swirly bokeh, and I wonder if it is more prominent than the original.


Just took a look at the group, and there are several good wide open examples right at the beginning of the stream:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186860472@N04/54286991288/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186860472@N04/54285864672/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/188479097@N07/54290242681/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/186860472@N04/54271230201/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16001978@N08/54252469441/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29949005@N02/54251312862/in/pool-14926373@N22/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16001978@N08/54246265341/in/pool-14926373@N22/

Id say the swirl is there....


Hi. Thanks a bunch. These images however don't show anything like the ones I usually take, which is wide-open portraits 5-10 feet away from the individual. The closer the focus on the subject, the less swirly the bokeh in the background. I'll look for those types of shots more doggedly in the next few days.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2025 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you're not looking for the outspoken character that the Biotar sometimes produces, but still want some kind of vintage touch, I can recommend the older Leitz Summicron-M 90mm f/2.
https://forum.mflenses.com/leitz-canada-pre-asph-summicron-90mm-f-2-t84612.html

Note: In the thread I labeled this version pre-aspherical, but this is not the correct designation in Leica-world. Mine is from 1976, and made in Canada, and its the V1 if I'm not wrong (not a Leica expert). It's a sharp lens, but not bitingly so wide open. @f/2.8 very sharp. No swirley bokeh, but nice and soft, also when stopped down under most circumstances. Because Leica users find this lens too big for the Leica rangefinders, it is usually quite affordable. Probably my favourite portrait lens.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: The Best Bokeh Among Manual Lenses? Reply with quote
charley5 wrote:
Hi Everyone:

Unfortunately, my much loved Zeiss Jena Biotar 75mm f/1.5 recently slipped out of my camera bag and broke. It is now unusable. I was looking to replace it but it has gotten prohibitively expensive to purchase. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a manual lens of any aperture which likewise has a dreamy bokeh, and gives images a kind of quirky artistry, as the Biotar does wide-open? The only other candidate that I have personally used, and which has comparable bokeh, has been the Helios40 85mm f1.5, albeit with a slightly warmer tone. But this lens is quite heavy. If there is an AF lens whose bokeh you exceedingly like, please mention it as well.

Thank you!

-Charles


I had both (Biotar 75/1.5 and TTArtisan 75/1.5). Buy TTArtisan, don't hesitate. Bokeh is almost identical. Color rendering of the Chinese lens is better. Disadvantages - it is heavier.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Silver ones are avalaible now.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
From what I have seen the TT-artisan misses a bit of the magic of the original, especially the soft glow that is much more pronounced in the original. Probably due to modern coatings.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:33 pm    Post subject: Pics please Reply with quote
Can we see images of your damaged lens mount?


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
blotafton wrote:
Well there is the 75mm Biotar replica from TTartisan. Looks like a great lens.


*checks price*
*checks price again*

How is that lens only $269?!


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
From what I have seen the TT-artisan misses a bit of the magic of the original, especially the soft glow that is much more pronounced in the original. Probably due to modern coatings.

Yes. They are close but i can feel the difference.

Similarly, the 100/2.8 from TT is also slightly different to the original if you look at the photos carefully. This is no surprise as the post-war trioplan is different to the pre-war trioplan too. Wink


PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2025 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Noritar wrote:
blotafton wrote:
Well there is the 75mm Biotar replica from TTartisan. Looks like a great lens.


*checks price*
*checks price again*

How is that lens only $269?!

Mass production.
The type of glass used is cheap compare the old days.
No asph element.
and more...


PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2025 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Charley5. I send you a PM. Please check it out.
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