Home

Please support mflenses.com if you need any graphic related work order it from us, click on above banner to order!
SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist RegisterRegister ProfileProfile Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages Log inLog in

Superia from Zorki-4: what's happened to these?
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Darkroom
View previous topic :: View next topic  


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject: Superia from Zorki-4: what's happened to these? Reply with quote
As you know this Zorki is new to me and I love it's "military service rifle" robust clunkiness.

This is my first film through back from my normally reliable developers.

The negs and the scan show the frames not correctly aligned but slightly on the wonk and they're all like this. Not just my horizontals off but the frame on the film...

What can this be? I've not come across such a thing before. Is it a processing-induced issue or could the fault lay in manufacturing?





PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe the film transport mechanism isn't perfectly aligned? I've similar things in my films too, but not so extreme.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Maybe the take up pool was not fully inserted ?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I don't know anything about Russian cameras but have you fired the camera with the back open to see what is happening. Question


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
In your pictures it's the right hand side of the images that are out of place, more than the left. This indicates the problem is on the film cartridge side of the shutter, not the sprocket/take-up spool side. Maybe the cartridge wasn't located properly, or is that possible?. Does that shed any light on the problem?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Drack wrote:
Maybe the take up pool was not fully inserted ?

+1

My FED2 can do this if the take up spool is not completely pushed in.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Guys, thanks for the tips. There's a fillum in now but I'll sneak it into a blacked out room, whip the film out or perhaps just make sure that the take up spool is fully home. I can crop the images so I'm not heartbroken but it'll be nice to get to the bottom of it.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
As I said, I don't think it's the take-up spool - it's on the wrong side of the image. And anyway, if the spool wasn't fully in, the film would not locate on the sprockets and you couldn't advance it.


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
scanning issue ? film wasn't properly in holder ?


PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sacrifice a film. An exposed film you can run through a camera with the back open is one of the most useful things I have on my desk.

I've got my Zorki here, with my dead film in it and the back off, and it's hard to see how you could run the film through at an angle like that, underneath the film canister there is a strong spring and on the take up side the spool is deeply flanged.

Did your developer do the scans ? I'm thinking that might be the problem. Other than that, the Zorki looks good.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There's no spring under the canister on mine Dave.

Here is my Zorki-4 with the back off. In the first picture I have fitted the canister without engaging the fork on the rewind shaft - the canister is about 4-5mm short of being fully inserted, and this slews the film. The back can still be fitted like this, with a small struggle, and it wouldn't necessarily be noticed until the film is rewound, when the fork would click into place. This also shows that the film can't be engaged on the sprockets if the take-up spool isn't fitted properly.


This is how it should be with the fork engaged and the film straight.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The spring is on the left screw of the back / base plate, and it's quite strong and the two prongs go into the recess in the base of the film canister.

Looking at it again - with my dead film - I can see that if the canister, looking from the bottom with the canister to your left, is slightly rotated anti clockwise a tiny bit then the slot where the film comes out can lodge on the rim where the light seal is. You can then still fit the back plate and jam the canister in the wrong position, which is a full 2.5 mm out of position. Obviously when a new film is installed care must be taken to ensure the canister goes right in. On this canister of Kodacolor the slightly raised end cap of the canister goes in beyond the lip of the light seal, it's out of sight. Exactly as your pictures show Peter.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:
The spring is on the left screw of the back / base plate, and it's quite strong and the two prongs go into the recess in the base of the film canister.

Looking at it again - with my dead film - I can see that if the canister, looking from the bottom with the canister to your left, is slightly rotated anti clockwise a tiny bit then the slot where the film comes out can lodge on the rim where the light seal is. You can then still fit the back plate and jam the canister in the wrong position, which is a full 2.5 mm out of position. Obviously when a new film is installed care must be taken to ensure the canister goes right in. On this canister of Kodacolor the slightly raised end cap of the canister goes in beyond the lip of the light seal, it's out of sight. Exactly as your pictures show Peter.

Yes, you're right. I wasn't looking for that kind of spring! Smile But when you try the bottom end of the canister against the base of the back, the projecting collar prevents the spring making any pressure in the groove. I imagine the spring was probably meant for those USSR reloadable canisters.

I can make the canister jam as you describe, although it only skews the film very slightly with my camera and the roll of Provia I've been testing. I don't have any Superia but I should think the canister is identical. Hmm.. this is weird.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy, Peterqd,

Thanks for your continued input both. Here's the thing though:
1. Looking at the strip neg all of the frames appear to be placed out of parallel with the edges of the film. I want to show you but today's going to be sooo busy that I may not get time.
2. When the loaded film cassette is not correctly aligned, does it fail to engage with the rewind lever? I certainly watched the rewind lever rotate with every frame wind-on. Curiously it isn't so doing now with the film that's in but whilst I'm happy that the film is winding on I don't want to ruin this film by exposing it to light.
3. I did take the back off last night and the take up spool was fully engaged and the sprockets/teeth engaging both edges of the film.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
tikkathree wrote:
Lloydy, Peterqd,

Thanks for your continued input both. Here's the thing though:
1. Looking at the strip neg all of the frames appear to be placed out of parallel with the edges of the film. I want to show you but today's going to be sooo busy that I may not get time.


I got that part OK! Smile The "frames" you see on any strip of negative are formed by the rectangular aperture behind the shutter in the camera - they are not on the film to start with. The film is coated from edge to edge. People who use 135 film in a 120 camera actually expose images right over the sprocket holes.

Assuming you held the camera level, then the frame is going to be level too, and with a level horizon on the image. So, as your images are skewed it can only mean that the film can't have been running parallel with the edge of the frame. It must be the film that is skewed, as you can see in my first picture.

Quote:
2. When the loaded film cassette is not correctly aligned, does it fail to engage with the rewind lever? I certainly watched the rewind lever rotate with every frame wind-on. Curiously it isn't so doing now with the film that's in but whilst I'm happy that the film is winding on I don't want to ruin this film by exposing it to light.

I was trying to discover ways in which the film could have become skewed. One way is if the canister is not fully inserted, either because the rewind fork isn't located properly inside the canister spindle, or because, as Dave suggested, the end of the canister slot is wedged on the light seal ridge. The rewind knob could still rotate even if either of these had happened.

When you finish that film and open the camera, can you try and find any way a film canister could be dislocated? You might have something missing. Look at the inside part of the locking knobs on the base - the one under the film canister should have a springy strip of metal which is meant to put pressure on the canister and keep it tight against the top plate, although I couldn't make that work as intended with a Fuji canister on on my camera.

Quote:
3. I did take the back off last night and the take up spool was fully engaged and the sprockets/teeth engaging both edges of the film.

Another way the film could be skewed, as was suggested earlier, is that the take-up spool hasn't been located properly. The spool is loose on the Zorki - you can pull it out, if you hadn't discovered that already. I discounted this, because then the film can't have been located on the sprockets, and it's these that advance the film and pull it out of the canister. So if they weren't engaged in the film sprocket holes the film wouldn't have advanced and you would have exposed your pictures repeatedly on the same patch of film.

Probably we'll never know what actually happened to your film, but it was fun thinking about it! Smile


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 2nd image shows the film a bit high on yours Peter.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
martinsmith99 wrote:
The 2nd image shows the film a bit high on yours Peter.

Yes it looks like that doesn't it! Smile
There's another guide rail further up which you can't see, hidden under the top plate. The film and the sprockets are actually perfectly centred over the shutter.


PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Roger, roger!

peterqd wrote:

I got that part OK! Smile The "frames" you see on any strip of negative are formed by the rectangular aperture behind the shutter in the camera - they are not on the film to start with. The film is coated from edge to edge. People who use 135 film in a 120 camera actually expose images right over the sprocket holes.


Gosh, aren't I fick? Such a novice with all this stuff. Still, if you don't make mistakes, and if you don't ask, you'll never learn owt.

peterqd wrote:
Assuming you held the camera level, then the frame is going to be level too, and with a level horizon on the image. So, as your images are skewed it can only mean that the film can't have been running parallel with the edge of the frame. It must be the film that is skewed, as you can see in my first picture.


In the context of wisdom part 1 I see that now.

Quote:

I was trying to discover ways in which the film could have become skewed. One way is if the canister is not fully inserted, either because the rewind fork isn't located properly inside the canister spindle, or because, as Dave suggested, the end of the canister slot is wedged on the light seal ridge. The rewind knob could still rotate even if either of these had happened.

When you finish that film and open the camera, can you try and find any way a film canister could be dislocated? You might have something missing. Look at the inside part of the locking knobs on the base - the one under the film canister should have a springy strip of metal which is meant to put pressure on the canister and keep it tight against the top plate, although I couldn't make that work as intended with a Fuji canister on on my camera.


Will do. Need rain to stop and light to start...

Quote:

Another way the film could be skewed, as was suggested earlier, is that the take-up spool hasn't been located properly. The spool is loose on the Zorki - you can pull it out, if you hadn't discovered that already. I discounted this, because then the film can't have been located on the sprockets, and it's these that advance the film and pull it out of the canister. So if they weren't engaged in the film sprocket holes the film wouldn't have advanced and you would have exposed your pictures repeatedly on the same patch of film.

Probably we'll never know what actually happened to your film, but it was fun thinking about it! Smile


Oh yes, I dropped the take up spool and couldn't believe the complexity of the casting on which it mounts.
At least I know that it wasn't a defective film with the individual frames poorly aligned in manufacturing...


PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well, it's happening again on my third film. I was out today with the Zorki and loading a cassette of homeloaded Rollei Retro. I had an image to shoot so couldn't, in a field, pause to investigate fully but there it was - the cassette snugged up as far as it would appear to go, the take-up spool correctly mounted, the film engaged on the sprocket and clearly aligned low left, high right looking at it.

I had to move on so I couldn't do much more than put my thumb to the bottom of the cassette, check that the film wasn't binding on anything and quickly put the back back on.

Next film change will be at a time and in a place where I can weigh things up.
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Home   Darkroom
Page 1 of 1