Scanning negatives and Lightroom processing

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi all,
my new sexy scanner is at home and I was wondering what is your workflow for scanning your files.
What are the parameters one need to know when scanning his first film?

and what type of processing do you do afterwards in lightroom?

I would like to thank you for your reply

Regards
A

paulhofseth · Expire: 2018-06-28

I am by no means well versed in how to do this, but I do occasionally scan film. I do preliminary corrections in the scanning program so as to get out a maximum of shadow and highlight info. I also do rough framing and if needed some infrared surface scan ("ICE").

I prefer to use the VueScan program which allows detailed control of the scanner. It does have some built in curves for common colour negative & positive films, but you can also make your own.

I scan in max quality and Adobe RGB colour space, but do not use the scanning software to interpolate to make files bigger than the original.

For dense B&W i use 3 successive scans. The same for Kodachromes which I find difficult to scan properly. Colour, (including Ilford XP) may need some twiddling with each RGB channel. B&W can of course be scanned without using separate colour channels, but I delude myself into believing that properly chosen, different curves for each can help rescue some negatives from contrasty scenes.

The resulting 16bit TIFFs are the loaded into my ordinary editing programme where I usually apply some tweaks (S-curve like correction, sharpening, selective colour etc. as needed)

I have found, however that rigging a bellows with an enlarger lens is a far faster way to digitize.

Ideally one should start with a colour test chart, snap it with the chosen colour negative film, scan, treat and then print in order to calibrate everything. Ideals, however, take a lot of time to put to practice.

p.

PWhite214 · Joined: 19 Apr 2014 Posts: 230 Location: Houston, Texas

I guess you are back home. How was your trip?

I am using an Epson 4490 scanner and VueScan software. I also bought 'The VueScan Bible' Kindle Edition from Amazon. Since both are downloads, they are on the computer in minutes from purchase. I am still using the basic settings from the book, lots to learn.

First, folders for the scans. I usually name the folder with location or trip, then subfolders for camera, flim type, then roll 01, 02.....
EX: Calif Trip 2014/Max 7/Portra VC160/Roll 01 ETC.

With my scanner, the preview scan covers up to 12 35mm negatives. Checking the preview, the settings can be tweaked to provide good TIFF files. Then each negative is scanned at maximum resolution and imported to lightroom for further correction.

Phil

Excalibur · Expire: 2014-04-21

Starting scanning with Epson scanner? At first best to start with Epson software and set in pro mode, for 2400 or 3200 dpi then on preview scan it will show you thumbnails and you can select colour auto correct if you want to see if each thumbnail looks better. Then just scan. But first use a rocket blower to clean all dust off neg and glass.
For the scanned Jpg files.....use any old version of Photoshop or whatever if you need to adjust anything i.e. how you want the picture to look or remove dust spots etc or colour casts.
Later on, you can play with histograms or different software to improve your results....good luck.

While flat bed scanners are reasonable for 35mm they are quite good for medium format negs and have compared a cheap Epson 4180 to a Epson V750 using a 6X7 cm neg and the 4180 hold up well until you start cropping e.g. 5ft across photo and the V750 is far superior, but of course for say a A4 size the difference would be less.

std · Joined: 09 Feb 2010 Posts: 1826 Location: Bulgaria

For B/W i use the following workflow:

- Scan in Vuescan - adjust and lock the exposure following this tutorial: https://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157608204093047/
- On Scan save from VueScan as RAW/DNG. In the "output" tab, the "RAW save film" option must be checked (this is in order to avoid negative inversion in LR)
- Import and adjust RAWS in Lightroom.

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

cool thanks guys. I will have a try today tomorrow and I will let you know

Regards
A

P.S Trip was good I am leaving in two weeks for one more Sad

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi,
the attachment of the scanner appeared today. My scanner is an epson 3490 photo.
I did not like the way you just lay it on the scanner as the slides can be slightly misaligned. I was happy to see though my negatives being scanned succesfully.

Now I have started with the program that came with the scanner. The names is 'EPSON Scan'

Into the mode now I set it to Professional Mode
Document: Film and Type: Color Negative Film

Image Type has 4 options:
48-bit color
24-bit color
Color Smoothing (what is that?)
16-bit grayscale
8-bit grayscale
Black And White (this is disabled)

Scanning Quality: Best or Draft (I selected Best)

Resolution. I can see values ranging from 50,72,96, all the way to 12800. I have selected 2400

Adjustments (here is the tough part)
Unsharp Mask (selected at medium level)
Grain Reduction (selected at medium level). Also color restoration is also selected
Backlight correction (selected at medium level)
Dust removal (unselected)

there also some optinons for histogram, tone correction .,

My goal would be to have sizes that can be printed up to A4 and edited into lightroom (preferred) or photoshop.

Can someone suggest some options to start with? After these I can press scan Smile

I Guess output format should be tiff. Is that correct?

After having scanned the first file it ended up with a resolution of 3k times 2k and a file size of 20Mb (ouch!)

I would like tot hank you for your reply

Regards
Alex

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

I also tried using vuescan.. The problem though is that vuescan does not know about my scanner and is doing a full glass scan.. and thus can not see the negative stripes. In my epson 3490 photo scanner I have inserted an adapter that can take the slides. The problem though now is I only see a full scan where the inserted adaptor is visible

Regards
A

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi,
I am posting one more here and I just hope someone would see my post.

I have spend an evening to find a way to scan my negatives so they look quite nice. I started with the films I already had developed in a lab (color film) and scanned from their device. That way I was hoping to be able to make a comparison that would perhaps help me compare those two. Btw they charge me 3 euros for scanning the negatives which I think that means that they did not use the best equipment for that.

I have started with the default program that came with my epson 3490 photo scanner
and then I also tried the vuescan.
I also tried following the guide here
https://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157608204093047/

as it was suggested from a forum member. I had problems following exactly the guide as my vuescans interface looked slightly different.
Any way.

At the end after experimenting with all the features.
My scanned files had always visible specks and dust while the laboratory scan did not have one.
My scanned files colors were always crappp while the laboratory color was not

I though it would be much easier to scan the negatives...

Any ideas what I am doing wrong here?

Alex

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4745 Location: Cheshire, England

Your settings are good but try:

colour restoration: off
backlight correction: off
Make sure auto exposure type is set to photo - not document.
The resolution can be up to 4800 but it will give a much bigger image size.
Do all the image adjustments in light room. The Tiff is as near to a raw file as you can get from a scanner. Adjusting too many settings at the scanning stage makes post processing harder.

Don't bother with the histogram and tone business. This can be changed in lightroom. Saving as a tiff is a good idea as it is lossless and can be worked on without losing more quality. A tiff can be ten times bigger than a jpg because its not compressed. Thats normal.

Make a duplicate file and work on that so you've still got the original scan.

Lloydy · Expire: 2022-01-01

I hated Vuescan when I tried it, the Epson software was a lot easier to use. I also did any adjustments in Photoshop ( or similar ) after scanning, it's just easier.

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4745 Location: Cheshire, England

A little tip for a sharper image, place the negative directly on the glass, emulsion side down, rather than putting it in the holder. The holder still needs to positioned correctly as the scanner needs to pick up the white markers on it and it needs know whether it is in slide position or neg position and indeed if it is scanning a transparency.

Dust is dust, Its incredibly hard to avoid. You are fortunate your processor didn't scan dirty negs, a local one near me drags them over the floor first - not really but thats what it looks like!

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi
thanks a lot for your comments. Here is my latest update:

When I turn on these settings:

colour restoration: off
backlight correction: off

colors look better and sometimes (not always) backlight correction improves brightness.
If I do not turn colour restoration on the colours I get look to be belonging to one family (so for example "greens) and I do not have the slightest idea how to process them in photoshop to get them right.

'I will also try the trick to place the negatives directly at the glass. How I can find the emulsion side though?
What color depth? 48 or 24bits?
Resolution for printing up to A4 page (example magazine). 3200dpi makes too large files.

Finally I need a way to handle the negatives without making extra marks on the negatives and the scanners surface. Any ideas what to do for that?

I would like to thank you in advance for your help

Regards
Alex

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4745 Location: Cheshire, England

Scan in 24 bits, 48 bits in my experience causes problems later. Try one anyway and see what happens. Experiment, you will get that eureka moment one day and all will become clear.

OK keep colour restoration on, mine is off all the time and works fine.

Backlight compensation basically over exposes the scan slightly, just like using the -/+ control on your camera. Use it with care, try it on and off see which is best.

I pretty well leave all my scan settings at default.

The emulsion side is the side with the image - slightly matt, if you look at it at an angle you can see the image, if you are looking at the glossy side you'll see nothing.

I suggest emulsion side down because the holder holds the negative a millimetre or so off the glass, the scanner is focused on the glass. If the neg is on the glass then it should scan better, I do it and there is a perceptible improvement.

Wear non-powdered vinyl gloves if you are worried about fingerprints, cotton ones will be better but could shed fibres.

It is almost impossible to avoid dust and fibres, use an antistatic wipe to clean the glass on the scanner. Perhaps invest in a can of compressed air to blow dust off the neg.

Make your own antistatic solution: http://www.wikihow.com/Make-an-Anti-Static-Wipe-for-Computer-Screens

Oh, you can get distilled water from a car spares shop or boiled water will do the job, it is to avoid limescale which is a problem in your area.

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi,
I am attaching two shots. First one is with color restoration off
and the other one with color restoration on.

Also at my defaults is selected the option unsharpen mask.

Would 1200 dpi give enough resolution to work on?
The other think I am not sure is if I import those files to my lightroom catalogue. Would I be able to do changes to the scanned tiff file in a non desctructive manner (pretty much what I do with my raw digital files)

Color restoration off:

Color restoration on:

I guess I am getting closer to finalize my settings which I means I can scan all those processed films I have and then start developing my own ones.

Now to give you a bit of my bitter taste. Last screenshot is the scanned file I got from my photo store.. What these guys do better? (and I do not believe that they have expensive gear.. but they know how to post process the file)

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4745 Location: Cheshire, England

This took about a minute in photoshop, this is your 'colour restoration on' image

If you save and change in Tiff you will not lose any image quality, only when you are happy save as jpg. The tiff will remain anyway.

Try with all the settings at default and correct everything in lightroom or photoshop. You have no fine control in epson scan.

[img]

By the way, the shop where you get the films developed may have a really good scanner, my local ASDA has a great one but only and off-site administrator can adjust the settings.

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Thanks.
1. I see that you did better job in restoring colours that my epson software. How did you do it? I guess the difficult though when you see a slide to "understand" what it needs and how to apply it.

2. So it does not look like I can do some of this work in lightroom (it will just simplify workflow considerably)

Regards
Alex

Excalibur · Expire: 2014-04-21

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

It is just an example.... I need first to confirm that I understand the basic stuff before I proceed scanning with all the others great shots I have (like Britney spears drunk)
before you see her please help me understand how I can further improve

Regards
Alex

Excalibur · Expire: 2014-04-21

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4745 Location: Cheshire, England

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi,
this is just a !test! slide. It was the first slide I pulled out of my pill of slides I want to scan. This was one of my first film rolls shot, from a not very good working camera, inside a train, behind a windows, mid day, while the train was moving at full speed.

I am just trying to share here how my scan processing ticks affect it and so you can help me choose default settings for all my scans.

Now,
this is what I get when I click the check box "Unsharpen Mask" (bit confusing term since the help page says that when I click the UN-sharpen mask my image is sharpened!!)

Unsharpen Mask is clicked
[img]http://alexpal.smugmug.com/ToShare/Forum-share/n-wf38C/i-7hhHnMq/A[/img]

and following with the image being with Unsharpen Mask unselected.
[img]http://alexpal.smugmug.com/ToShare/Forum-share/n-wf38C/i-HNj4rhg/A[/img]

My eyes see that I should avoid sharpening with the scaner but later on in lightroom or photoshop.
Few questions more
-How do you sharp your slides to make them look sharper without increasing too much the noise?
-How did you improve the color of your slides?(see few posts above the discussion about color correction my scanner does)
-How much dpi should be enough for up to A4 printing? 1200?

Regards
Alex

philslizzy · Joined: 07 Aug 2012 Posts: 4745 Location: Cheshire, England

I never sharpen images, I don't see the point. If they are not sharp enough you need address this issue at the taking stage. Just try it and see whether its for you. Accept what you get because the Epson Scan software isn't sophisticated enough to make fine adjustments, nor in my opinion, are you experienced enough to apply any adjustments to the best effect, yet. No offence meant.

Always scan at 2400 - 4800 dpi for maximum quality. You can reduce the file size later if needed.

Play with the colour settings in your program, I'm not familiar with lightroom but in photoshop, try 'auto color' and/or 'auto tone' if thats no good undo it and go into 'color balance' and/or 'hue & saturation'

Regards a workflow, I understand this to meaning applying the same adjustments to a large batch of images. Shots taken in different light, of diverse subjects and on different days can rarely be processed like that. Each image has to be dealt with separately.

Excalibur · Expire: 2014-04-21

***How do you sharp your slides to make them look sharper without increasing too much the noise?***

Enlarge a portion of your shot (say in Photoshop) and add sharpening until the pixels start to degrade.....you'll see what I mean by the sky or edge of a building and so on.

alaios · Joined: 24 Jan 2014 Posts: 724

Hi,
I scanned two images at 4800dpi... which gave me file sizes of 100mb! Razz

Can someone help me read the specs
https://files.support.epson.com/pdf/pr349p/pr349ppg.pdf

and understand if 4800 is at least a native resolution or it is interpolated (and thus I should scan at 2400?)

I am uploading now two last comparisons, after that I would be ready to scan all my negatives.

Can someone explain me the notion of colour restoration that my scanner does? What type of transformation it applies? How it decides which colors needs boosting and boost it accordingly?

I would like to thank you for your reply

Regards
Alex