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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
the days of these humongous cams have already passed.


What do you think the pro shooters will be using at the next Olympics - only a few months away now ?


PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sichko, do you claim olympic photographers are the market? or the future of photography? or have anything to do with where photographic equipment goes? i might think again! Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You will see LOTS of both models at the Olympics Wink The 1DX and D4 and exactly what pro shooters were crying out for i.e. Fantastic high ISO performance, incredible frame rates and full frame image quality that will likely be leaps and bounds ahead of current full frame technology, which is now 3-4 years old.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
You will see LOTS of both models at the Olympics Wink The 1DX and D4 and exactly what pro shooters were crying out for i.e. Fantastic high ISO performance, incredible frame rates and full frame image quality that will likely be leaps and bounds ahead of current full frame technology, which is now 3-4 years old.


This can only be good news. The D3 and D3s will become more affordable for us amateurs!! Wink


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
ManualFocus-G wrote:
You will see LOTS of both models at the Olympics Wink The 1DX and D4 and exactly what pro shooters were crying out for i.e. Fantastic high ISO performance, incredible frame rates and full frame image quality that will likely be leaps and bounds ahead of current full frame technology, which is now 3-4 years old.


yup, but very few of us are pro shooters. i would go out on a limb and say that less than 5% of this forums members can fully utilize the capabilities of these cams insofar as those capabilities are beyond cams like the nex7. so then the point is WTF? who needs the bulk? the public's googling eyes and approbation? just my opinion that the future of photography does not lie on this road.

haning said that i always look forward to grahams 5d pix and orio's 5dmkii pix!


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
well,just based with F6 plus the video-taking.
However,the 11 fps in full-frame in RAW mode can be very noticeable.
I am not that kind for the time being. I just get started.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
so then the point is WTF? who needs the bulk? the public's googling eyes and approbation? just my opinion that the future of photography does not lie on this road.


Seat belts, unlockable brakes, lockable wheel bolts, tyre threads, crash bumpers, rpm limiters, fuel injection... just to mention a few inventions race cars introduced to family cars - inventions that would never had appeared in our everyday life if you were to decide.

The Olympics is more than a race or an important trade show: it's importance is so significant that the whole camera industry cycles itself at 4 year intervals. Different camera systems come and go, but since the 1960's history has proven that the direction of where photography is going is dictated by the (D)SLR versatility, speed and changeable perspective (lenses). Cameras originally developed for sports and PJ use have been so significant in design, that they have created new trends in photography, for instance changing totally how weddings are photographed nowadays.

Last edited by Esox lucius on Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
good points vilhelm. where we differ is i already have a belief that the future of photography lies is excellent quality compact mirrorless cameras. perhaps i turn out to be wrong, perhaps you turn out to be wrong. it is the market that will decide, not either of us and not canon nor nikon, who are deeply invested in neanderthal bulk.

and btw, for the life of me i dont understand how you can extrapolate my above position into me being against change or advancement in photography, or cars. it is totally not what i'm saying, in fact i'm saying the exact opposite, that the advancements in photography have already occured, and it is CanNikon that are ignoring them!


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell, when you have major producers of camera equipment that have large lines of what may quickly become legacy gear, it isn't to be unexpected that they will be cautious with new entries into largely unknown territories. But once they get a feel for things and experience some success, watch out. They'll ramp it up in a major way and then try to dominate the market.

There are many pundits out there who believe that the "future of photography" lies in smart phone cameras. Sad, but not totally unlikely. Pro photography is a niche, let's face it, albeit an important and influential one. Technology that trickles down from it will eventually even reach the cell phone. E.g., HD video recording is something many/most smart phones can do now.

But there have been other advances that moved in the opposite direction, starting off with consumer models and then winding up in pro gear. E.g., auto exposure, auto focus, and even digital photography. Recall that the early forays into the digital realm had already begun by the early 1990s with still video products like the Canon Xapshot and others.

On the F4, however, I see some features that I honestly wonder if pros will likely use and wonder if the feature list has been bulked up just because it can be? Facial recognition, for example? My daughter's Canon A1000IS digicam has that feature. Useful for snapshots I suppose, but I wonder how often pros will use it. Increased AF accuracy, I suppose. I'll be impressed when the camera makers come up with technology that not only can reliably pick out a face, but that's smart enough to focus on at least one of the eyes. Cool Might be a while yet on that one.

To continue the auto racing comparison, advances that have trickled down to production vehicles: turbochargers, superchargers, electronic engine management, variable valve timing, the ubiquity of twin-cam, four-valve (or more) per cylinder engines, fast diesels, wide low-profile tires, 4-wheel independent suspension . . .

This presupposes of course that the technology transfer from racing to production vehicles is a valid comparison to the technological transfer from pro photo gear to more amateur oriented gear. It works for me. Same valid comparisons can be made regarding technological advances that were made during wartime or the threat of war (e.g. aircraft) that eventually made it into the civilian sector.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
A few things.

First, at this point, Nikon doesn't care what the general market thinks about the D4. This is a pro tool aimed at pros, who want/need its capabilities. And pro adoption will accrue street cred to the D800 and DX models. Its size is roughly that of the D3, which has been an unmitigated success for Nikon.

Second, a pro who tries to use a Nex-7 to shoot an Olympic basketball game just won't be able to compete with a pro using a D4. The Olympics are about shooting action, and the D4 will excel at that.

Third, I was wondering how long it would take the Canon gang to jump in. Answer: Not very.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
having said that i always look forward to grahams 5d pix and orio's 5dmkii pix!


Ha! Thanks Tony Smile I'd rather my 5D was smaller and lighter though! Laughing I really like the 60D's size actually.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
gaeger wrote:
Third, I was wondering how long it would take the Canon gang to jump in. Answer: Not very.


Most Canon shooters seem to think the cameras are very well matched by the looks of things. It's the Nikon shooters who seem disappointed on the various forums Shocked


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Graham: Ask any full-time photographer what they think of the average Dpreview/Nikonrumors whiner and he/she will reply: Who gives a flying **** what the gear masturbators think?

cooltouch wrote:
On the F4, however, I see some features that I honestly wonder if pros will likely use and wonder if the feature list has been bulked up just because it can be? Facial recognition, for example? My daughter's Canon A1000IS digicam has that feature. Useful for snapshots I suppose, but I wonder how often pros will use it. Increased AF accuracy, I suppose.


esox lucius wrote:

(Facial recognition) as anyone who has done video with a DSLR can testify, it will come in as a very useful feature (just as the seamless aperture control during video)


AF accuracy is already good enough on the four-year-old D3 (the AF-C 3D live tracking is like a laser beam which locks on the moving subject). Nevertheless, AF module improvements are always welcome. The facial recognition feature will come in very handy for the DSLR news video shooters who mostly rely on their LCD.

Pro cameras are packed with features many (or most) amateurs will not need, much less even appreciate.

Since I share equipment with my business associate, I can always pick a D700 if I want to - but I usually don't, simply because the "prosumer" D700 lacks several useful features found on the "pros only" D3 (for instance a lock button which I can lock either or both shutter speed and aperture - it's easy to bump either dial during a studio shoot and end up with a series of frames with undesired exposure).

I have read the D4 specs and the brochure line by line and the only things I can honestly classify as "I won't need that" is the firmware support for languages other than English. Every other feature is either a small improvement from what I'm used to with my D3, or a feature which brings a small but important change to my daily working environment: illuminated buttons, audio/video features, refined ergonomics on the vertical grip, 1.2x crop mode, built-in HDR (real estate agents don't pay for time spent in post-processing), cards and workflow features that speed up the boring process of transfering files - the list goes on and on.

I have also now seen JPEGs with noise removal OFF, and I can validate my previous impression of colour noise levels and dynamic range at high ISO: the D4 is two full f-stops better than a D3, and one full f-stop better than a D3s. This is a significant technological and competitive edge and it will be very much appreciated the next time I shoot a November wedding in a lousy lit church with flash use forbidden - I can maintain detail in both the white bridal dress as well as the dark dress coat even when I need ISO 6400 and f/2 (or ISO 12800 and f/2.8 ) to freeze the couple walking down the aisle.

Vilhelm


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilhelm, as i said repeatedly, if 'pros' need this cam, god bless 'em! the overwhelming majrity of us arent pros and won't use or need these features or this bulk. and its unfortunate you need to carry around this dinosaur to achieve the exact good low light performance that ive been getting with my x100 for months! there are many cams around half this size and cost that will yield great results at 6400.

michael i totally agree with you, but thats not really my point. boil it down to this, ten years from now people will be laughing at this kind of camera the way the ipod generation now laughs at the sony walkman. and i hope at that time its fuji, olly and samsung leading the pack and CaNikon behind sweeping up the poop because they missed the boat! Laughing


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
the overwhelming majrity of us arent pros and won't use or need these features or this bulk. and its unfortunate you need to carry around this dinosaur to achieve the exact good low light performance that ive been getting with my x100 for months!


Unfortunately, you still don't get it.

1: That's right, you're not a pro. I'm not either. Neither of us needs most of these features. We're not the ones this camera is aimed at.
2: How is your x100 at photographing hurdlers from 50 meters away? Trying to compare your x100 to a Nikon D4 is ridiculous. They're two vastly different cameras meant to do vastly different things.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
edit: gaeger nails it

rbelyell wrote:
its unfortunate you need to carry around this dinosaur to achieve the exact good low light performance that ive been getting with my x100 for months! there are many cams around half this size and cost that will yield great results at 6400.


I also have an X100 and I carry it whenever I'm off-duty, but claiming the X100 high ISO performance is exactly the same as on a D3/D4 is like pretending your STW is a race car - even the 4 year old D3 at ISO 6400 is cleaner than the X100 at ISO 1600-3200, not to mention the obvious difference in detail and dynamic range Rolling Eyes

For every job there's a tool and I really don't care what you're shooting with as long as you're satisfied with it. I just can't help finding it weird when in this topic members question a superfast pro DSLR's features and even raison d'être, while simultaneously admitting their photographic needs don't require a pro DSLR.

rbelyell wrote:
ten years from now people will be laughing at this kind of camera the way the ipod generation now laughs at the sony walkman. and i hope at that time its fuji, olly and samsung leading the pack and CaNikon behind sweeping up the poop because they missed the boat! Laughing


Ten years from now every single pro sports/wedding/PJ photographer will laugh at comments like that, just as professionals laughed 100 years ago when the Vest Pocket Kodak was marketed as the pocketable camera that will make large format cameras (and professional photographers) obsolete. It's the same discussion over and over again, the only difference is that when APS film users thought 35mm SLR was dying, there were no internet forums to offload on.

Last edited by Esox lucius on Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
gaeger wrote:
rbelyell wrote:
the overwhelming majrity of us arent pros and won't use or need these features or this bulk. and its unfortunate you need to carry around this dinosaur to achieve the exact good low light performance that ive been getting with my x100 for months!


Unfortunately, you still don't get it.

1: That's right, you're not a pro. I'm not either. Neither of us needs most of these features. We're not the ones this camera is aimed at.
2: How is your x100 at photographing hurdlers from 50 meters away? Trying to compare your x100 to a Nikon D4 is ridiculous. They're two vastly different cameras meant to do vastly different things.


first off you oughta take it a little easy before you bust a gut for the new year. i'm not insulting your wife here, i'm saying these cameras have seen their day, thats all, and thats my opinion. you like 'em, great, buy'em and have fun luggin' 'em around. second, my x100 comparison was made with respect to the comment about how great the nikon shoots at 6400. obviously the x100 cant shoot hurdlers or whatever, but i'm 53 years old and never shot a hurdler nor do i care to. i venture to bet you you couldnt rub 3 people together on this forum who have, so honestly, your point is nonesensical. i'll take you at your word this is the best hurdler-shooting tool ever made, hopefully that assuages whatever wounds i have caused.

what youre not getting is very simple: my comments are obviously not aimed strictly at this camera, but at canon and nikon ignoring the market reality and coming out with one behemouth cam after another. this is just the latest example. i dont think thats where the market is now o r is going. thats my opinion. you disagree, great. why dont we meet here in ten years and see who was right? but for now, lets calm down a bit, ok?

Last edited by rbelyell on Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:05 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Esox lucius wrote:
edit: gaeger nails it

rbelyell wrote:
its unfortunate you need to carry around this dinosaur to achieve the exact good low light performance that ive been getting with my x100 for months! there are many cams around half this size and cost that will yield great results at 6400.


I also have an X100 and I carry it whenever I'm off-duty, but claiming the X100 high ISO performance is exactly the same as on a D3/D4 is like pretending your STW is a race car - even the 4 year old D3 at ISO 6400 is cleaner than the X100 at ISO 1600-3200, not to mention the obvious difference in detail and dynamic range Rolling Eyes

For every job there's a tool and I really don't care what you're shooting with as long as you're satisfied with it. I just can't help finding it weird when in this topic members question a superfast pro DSLR's features and even raison d'être, while simultaneously admitting their photographic needs don't require a pro DSLR.

rbelyell wrote:
ten years from now people will be laughing at this kind of camera the way the ipod generation now laughs at the sony walkman. and i hope at that time its fuji, olly and samsung leading the pack and CaNikon behind sweeping up the poop because they missed the boat! Laughing


Ten years from now every single pro sports/wedding/PJ photographer will laugh at comments like that, just as professionals laughed 100 years ago when the Vest Pocket Kodak was marketed as the pocketable camera that will make large format cameras (and professional photographers) obsolete. It's the same discussion over and over again, the only difference is that when APS film users thought 35mm SLR was dying, there were no internet forums to offload on.


vilhelm youre absolutely correct, for every job there's a tool, and if you feel this cam is the best tool for your job, i'm happy you found it. however, imo, to ignore the immense qualitative advances that have been made in the mirrorless cam world just over the past 18 months is to stick ones head in the sand in the same way canon and nikon have done. they keep comig out with 6 or so 'new' dinosaur cams every year and ignore the quality people are getting from cams like the sony 5n and nex7, from the fuji x100 and soon its S1 pro, even from samsung. you are certainly entitled to believe this compact technology will not overtake these dinosaurs, just as i guess the dinosaurs themselves felt about the puny but agile humans, or perhaps you felt about your old sony walkman when the ipod first appeared on the landscape. only time will tell, but dinosaurs die, and the kind of tecnology this cam represents is in my opinion Dead Cam Walking.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Every single time I shoot a wedding, I hear the same dinosaur comments from at least one iPhone/NEX/P&S user. If I'm particularly unlucky there will be some eager fauxtographer who wants to provoke a dick comparison by openly questioning the bride's choice to hire a pro for the wedding; Look, this $100 camera takes just as nice pictures as your expensive camera!. Yeah right... The worst kind are the ones who claim pro's are so expensive because of their pricy gear, when in fact only 7% of my invoicing is used to renew aging equipment (taxes take 65%).

This isn't a race of catching up on someone who has fallen behind, nor is there a climate change that will kill the dominant species. I do agree this is about evolution and certain species becoming very specialized (and even moving out of their original habitat). I don't know if mirror DSLRs will be extinct in 2021 and frankly I don't even care, or have to - there will always exist cameras for professional needs just as there will be cameras for amateur needs.

You should be thankful the Two Big Ones invest in technology flagships, if they didn't your X100 would still be unusable above ISO 400. The fact that they are catering to the pro segment when Samsung isn't doesn't mean less food on your table - in every healthy economy there will be target groups and segment leaders manufacturing products for specific needs.


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
i'll bet you any amount of money there are pro wedding photogs who will be using the nex7 and Upcoming fuji x1 pro as their main tools of trade this year. i guess those who use the D4 will be 'better' pro's cause their equipment is bigger.

big dslr's have had ten years or more to build up a 'quality' lead on these very new mirrorless cams. but these tiny wonders have advanced much more in the past two years than the dino cams have. the nex7 is being compared IQ wise to the 5dmkii. maybe its not there yet, but one or two more generations and it will be.

the japanese zen masters have a saying that one should approach each task 'as a child', ie, no predispositions, no history or investments to protect...

Last edited by rbelyell on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:31 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I hope you where not serious when you compared 2012 vaporware with a by then discontinued and 5-year old DSLR prosumer body. That's not exactly what I would call a "win", "tie" or even "catching up".

rbelyell wrote:
i'll bet you any amount of money there are pro wedding photogs who will be using the nex7 and S1 pro as their main tools of trade this year. i guess those who use the D4 will be 'better' pro's cause their equipment is bigger.


Brides decide who is the better pro and your gear is irrelevant to them, something the majority of amateurs or weekend professionals have immense difficulties in grasping. When you charge people money for photographing weddings, you simply do not gamble with their wedding memories, something that is reflected in everything from planning the job to your choice of tools. Whereas we photographers spend our leisure time in gear debates on photography forums, brides spend their time reading wedding forum posts about Uncle Pete the fauxtographer, who used his newly bought pocket camera to ruin someone's wedding memories. Photography is a lot about understanding (and getting around) the limitations of your equipment, and while I enjoy those tiny wonders they simply are not mature for the job - yet.

This is also the reason why in 2012 you will (bet approved) not see a wedding pro sustaining his/her living with a NEX7 which, in ideal circumstances, potentially could rival the image quality of by then already discontinued and 5-year old prosumer DSLR bodies.

I sense certain bitterness in your posts. I apologize if my comments sounded arrogant to your view on the subject - this certainly was not my intention. Predicting the future is certainly interesting, but I hope we can continue the debate of novelty camera systems in a topic dedicated for it, here:

http://forum.mflenses.com/more-camera-development-for-2012-t45997.html

Last edited by Esox lucius on Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:10 pm; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell wrote:
big dslr's have had ten years or more to build up a 'quality' lead on these very new mirrorless cams. but these tiny wonders have advanced much more in the past two years than the dino cams have.

The Nex-5N appears to use the same sensor as the Nikon D7000 and the Pentax K5, both of which predate it. Similarly the Fuji x100 appears to use the same sensor as the Nikon D300(s)/D90/D5000 and one of the Pentax cameras (Kx?). There are not that many sensor manufacturers around and not that many sensors. The same sensor can be used in different formats.

Quote:
the nex7 is being compared IQ wise to the 5dmkii.

IQ is not the only consideration. Some activities require long fast glass. Canon (together with Nikon) has it. The Nex doesn't.[/quote]


PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilhelm , no problem! we're just fooling around, and i mispoke about the fuji, i meant the soon to be released 'X'1 pro, not 'S'1 pro as i incorrectly wrote. listen man, i greatly respect professionals. altough i fancy myself a nice picture taker, i hired a pro to photo my wedding. and to me i agree, its not about gear. i think a pro could do a fabulous wedding with my x100, with an nex7 or with the D4, and i couldnt match him with the best tool available.

and sichko, sure some activities, like sports, require special glass. but i really believe if you could attach that glass, along with the whole setup, tripod, location etc, to one of the top mirrorless cams, a pro would get an acceptable percentage of 'magazine' shots. thats really my point, these type cams are no longer needed to get results we expect from bulky slr's. and if i am wrong, and they are needed right now, they very soon will not be.

since these cams can adapt pretty much any lens, i think we're almost there!


PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
rbelyell: I apologize for the tone of my post earlier. You're right, not something to get one's knickers in a knot over. I respect your opinion on this.


PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Esox lucius wrote:


Brides decide who is the better pro and your gear is irrelevant to them, something the majority of amateurs or weekend professionals have immense difficulties in grasping. When you charge people money for photographing weddings, you simply do not gamble with their wedding memories, something that is reflected in everything from planning the job to your choice of tools. Whereas we photographers spend our leisure time in gear debates on photography forums, brides spend their time reading wedding forum posts about Uncle Pete the fauxtographer, who used his newly bought pocket camera to ruin someone's wedding memories. Photography is a lot about understanding (and getting around) the limitations of your equipment, and while I enjoy those tiny wonders they simply are not mature for the job - yet.



Sorry for going off topic, but well said!

One of the best Nikon wedding photographer in the US that I respect immensely as a photographer and teacher is Cliff Mautner:

http://www.cmphotography.com/

No one else taught me how to see the "light" falling on a bride as good as him. After seeing his training videos, I began to see the "quality" of light on a person and became a better judge of lighting conditions.
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