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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:12 am Post subject: Linhof Super Technika vs Topcon Horseman? |
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LittleAlex wrote:
I am looking for the rangefinder 6x7 for the portrait sessions. Something with 180mm or 150mm lens. I discovered, that there are very suitable systems for that purpose: Linhof Super Technika, and Topcon Horseman.
However, Linhof is generally mush more expensive, then Horseman. So, I wonder whether it is really worthy to be paid much? Or the Horseman system will be quite enough? _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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dan_
Joined: 05 Dec 2012 Posts: 1058 Location: Romania
Expire: 2016-12-19
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Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2023 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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dan_ wrote:
I have no experience with Horseman but I have 3 6x9 Linhofs, including a Super Technica. Linhofs are very well engineered, a sort of Leica of the large format. When buying a Linhof you must consider not only the price of the camera but the price of the accessories you'll need, too. And this increases the price you have to pay quite much. Is the price worth it? Well, IMO, this very much depends on what you intend to do with the camera. The Linhof system is, generally, more extended and more capable than most other LF systems in most situations, but it has its limitations.
If your intention is to use it as a RF portrait camera you must consider some facts:
- The RF viewfinder is quite small, intended mostly for focusing, and you'll need to buy the additional external viewfinder. This is a very nice viewfinder (I have one), bright, with a large image, with parallax correction and covering most usual FLs, but is expensive. A cheaper alternative is the external Wire Finder (parallax corrected, as well).
- In order to use a lens on Linhof with the coupled RF you must have a matching cam. Therefore you must buy a camera with matching lenses from the beginning. Very few of the Linhofs on sell come with matching lenses and they are quite expensive. To add a lens to your camera's RF you must buy a blanc 3-cams-disk and have it drilled specially for your lens. It is expensive and very few people still know how to do it.
- Only lenses in shutter can be used.
- The camera is quite heavy. You'll need a Linhof handgrip to use it hand-held.
Horseman has its limitations, some similar to the ones above, as well. A nice addition to a 6x9 Horseman is the optional back extender that allows your horseman to become a 4x5 camera. It is quite unique between the 6x9 cameras.
If I'll want a camera for RF portraits I'll probably not chose a Linhof or a Horseman, but a Graflex Speed Graphic. It was a press camera and therefore easier to use hand-heled. It is much lighter and it has a focal-plane shutter allowing you to mount lenses without shutter, even old projection lenses. And the RF cams are much easier to adapt for any lens. You'll probably still need an external Linhof viewfinder for portraits. Their Roll-Film holders are not considered very reliable, but you may use other brands. I'll use it with a Grafmatic film holder (a lovely engineered film holder for 6 sheets of film), for the best possible film flatness.
There are many other options you could consider, from Plaubel, Mamiya, Fuji.
But if your goal is a 6x7 RF portrait camera your best option is, IMO, a Koni-Omega Rapid 100 camera (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNFvbXn6dPY ). I had 2 of them, as well. They come with 3 beautiful, coupled lenses (180mm included) and they are lighter and cheaper than the above. Their film advance system is unique, very fast and with very good film flatness. The RF image is quite large and you can adjust the RF yourself quite easy if needed(I did it with my KOs). One drawback is that many of them have, due to their age, a dimmed image in the RF. If you are lucky to find one without dimmed-image RF you are done, otherwise a Linhof external viewfinder, again, will help. KO was considered a wedding camera in its time and this says much about its portrait capabilities.
I hope this helps you to make your choice, Alex. |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
dan_ wrote: |
- The RF viewfinder is quite small, intended mostly for focusing, and you'll need to buy the additional external viewfinder. This is a very nice viewfinder (I have one), bright, with a large image, with parallax correction and covering most usual FLs, but is expensive. |
I really already own Linhof external zoom viewfinder with 6x9 mask. Which I bought with idea to use it for the Leica camera. I paid for it $150.
It happened to be quite inconvenient for that use. And latter I obtained the native Leica external viewfinder anyway. So, that option is for me already covered
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Exploring the situation further, I suddenly discovered, that there is the Linhof Technika 70 camera, which really fits my needs, and has perfect large viewfinder with parallax compensation. It is exactly of 7x6 format. And has vertically oriented viewfinder, which exactly fits for the portrait photography.
https://www.shutterbug.com/content/classic-camerasbrthe-linhof-technika-70
So, I started attentively to look in that direction.
dan_ wrote: |
- In order to use a lens on Linhof with the coupled RF you must have a matching cam. Therefore you must buy a camera with matching lenses from the beginning. Very few of the Linhofs on sell come with matching lenses and they are quite expensive. To add a lens to your camera's RF you must buy a blanc 3-cams-disk and have it drilled specially for your lens. It is expensive and very few people still know how to do it.
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Quite possible, that cams would work so-so with any lens of the same focus. At least cams for the Horseman are not matched to the specific lens, and nobody complains seemingly.
dan_ wrote: |
A nice addition to a 6x9 Horseman is the optional back extender that allows your horseman to become a 4x5 camera. It is quite unique between the 6x9 cameras.
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I already own several 4x5 cameras. But without the rangefinder. So, I don’t really need that option
dan_ wrote: |
But if your goal is a 6x7 RF portrait camera your best option is, IMO, a Koni-Omega Rapid 100 camera
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I already own it. But only with one 90mm lens. First I had been looking for the 135mm, of 180mm lens for it. But the prices for it were too optimistic for my taste. So, I decided to look for RF with bellows, and cheaper lens possibilities.
dan_ wrote: |
I hope this helps you to make your choice, Alex. |
Yes, you really did. The greatest thanks! _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson
Last edited by LittleAlex on Fri Mar 17, 2023 8:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dan_
Joined: 05 Dec 2012 Posts: 1058 Location: Romania
Expire: 2016-12-19
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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dan_ wrote:
Yes, Technika 70 has a larger, vertical viewfinder and therefore is better for portraits. It has marks for 95/100mm and 180mm lenses, as you wanted. The camera is heavy and bulky, you'll need a handgrip for it (at least I needed).
One of my 3 Linhofs is a Techika 70 (the 3-rd is a Technikardan) but, unfortunately, it's not in a working order anymore... Good luck with your acquisition. |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
dan_ wrote: |
Yes, Technika 70 has a larger, vertical viewfinder and therefore is better for portraits. It has marks for 95/100mm and 180mm lenses, as you wanted. |
Oh,yes! I really started to look carefully in that direction. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
Well, have obtained from Ebay that set for my future portrait (and maybe some other) purposes:
"Linhof Technika 70 kit - including a 80mm f2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach Xenotar, 65mm f3.5 Mamiya, and 180mm f5.6 Topcor. The camera was CLA'ed and any broken plastic pieces or parts likely to break (some original parts were notable for using poor-quality plastic) have been replaced with 3D-printed, laser-sintered Nylon, to exact dimensions. This mainly includes the rangefinder cover and part of the ground glass holder. All lenses and shutters are in great condition; the 180mm Topcor and 65mm Mamiya are both matched to the rangefinder with a custom-ground cam. The rangefinder, film back, tilt and shift movements work perfectly. The bellows are in great condition and light-tight. The handle attaches firmly to the body and has an integrated shutter release usable on any LF or MF lens with a typical threaded shutter release. The hardcase for this camera is included!"
_________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
I wonder whether anybody does perchance have in possession that book in file:
https://learncamerarepair.com/product.php?product=1152
They ask for downloading of it $1. It is not too much, of course. The problem is that it is prohibited today to send from the Ukraine any amount of money to the foreign countries, unfortunately. So, I will be very thankful, if somebody would send me the file. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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rmd44
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 7
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 11022 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Code: |
https://drive.google.com/.../19LpQBvVDCaHRevOR4xt.../view... |
that link doesn't work -- missing portions of url have been replaced with ... -- need those parts. _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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rmd44
Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 7
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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rmd44 wrote:
Apologies. I picked this link up from the camera repair facebook page - I have no personal interest,
and have no idea why the pasted link doesn't work.
Computers eh !!
you could go to my original source and try :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/360490091319202/search?q=linhof
Scroll down to Christopher Cox and click on this link in his post which does
seem to work and opens up up quite a large pdf of the maintenance manual. |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
I did try. The greatest thanks! Unfortunately, I don't have Facebook account. So, I had not been able to to log in.
Really, at the present I don't have any problems with camera. Beside that the winder need some cleaning for my taste. So, I was looking for that instruction to disassemble it. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
What is the most wonderful, it is that the 180mm Topcor is completely coherent with the ringer finder. Even at the full opening. And it was the main reason I looked for that camera. To make with it the candid portraits.
_________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 11022 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2023 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
Overflowing Wonderful! _________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:38 am Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
For the comparison, there is the same subject, taken with 80mm f2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach Xenotar, but closed to 8.0 (I used the guess method for the distance, by the scale for the lens, which I created preliminary by means of the laser tape-measure, and glued to camera).
_________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
Macro photo with using of the swing frame (both standards)
80mm f2.8 Schneider-Kreuznach Xenotar, f/16
There is the scan file in its full resolution:
https://i.ibb.co/qyPHkrX/1.jpg
There is the color scan of the negative in full resolution
https://i.ibb.co/q16fr03/2-min.jpg _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2023 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
I discovered, that the rangefinder works with 180mm lens only till 3.5 meters. So, it means that it is possible to do with the rangefinder only the “knee portraitsâ€. Which is not good at all. And looks completely strange, because the lens goes much beyond from that position.
Completely the same problem I discovered also with Koni-Omega 180mm F4.5 Hexanon telephoto lens on the Koni Omega 6x7cm Rangefinder. However there is the justifying limitation of helicoids proceeding of course.
So, my idea to make the candid portraits came to be the very limited on that format. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
There suddenly came for my consideration the very involving kit with the Horseman VH-R “as completely new†for the more then very affordable price.
So, I didn’t withstand the temptation, and obtained it, to compare with the Linhof Technika 70 camera.
To say the truth, from the very first impression I have liked Horseman much more than Linhof. Starting from the general build of the camera and finishing, the weight of it (much lighter), convenience and even the clearness of the viewfinder windows. Only one advantage of the Linhof is that it has combined range-finder.
Also, there came in the pack 150mm lens with cum. And I discovered, that it is possible to do with the range-finder even full face portraits! Which is exactly what I was looking for!
There were three only 6x9 backs. Fortunately I have in my storage Mamiya RGB 6x7 back, which precisely fits the Horseman camera. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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visualopsins
Joined: 05 Mar 2009 Posts: 11022 Location: California
Expire: 2025-04-11
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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visualopsins wrote:
_________________ ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮ like attracts like! ☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮☮
Cameras: Sony ILCE-7RM2, Spotmatics II, F, and ESII, Nikon P4
Lenses:
M42 Asahi Optical Co., Takumar 1:4 f=35mm, 1:2 f=58mm (Sonnar), 1:2.4 f=58mm (Heliar), 1:2.2 f=55mm (Gaussian), 1:2.8 f=105mm (Model I), 1:2.8/105 (Model II), 1:5.6/200, Tele-Takumar 1:5.6/200, 1:6.3/300, Macro-Takumar 1:4/50, Auto-Takumar 1:2.3 f=35, 1:1.8 f=55mm, 1:2.2 f=55mm, Super-TAKUMAR 1:3.5/28 (fat), 1:2/35 (Fat), 1:1.4/50 (8-element), Super-Multi-Coated Fisheye-TAKUMAR 1:4/17, Super-Multi-Coated TAKUMAR 1:4.5/20, 1:3.5/24, 1:3.5/28, 1:2/35, 1:3.5/35, 1:1.8/85, 1:1.9/85 1:2.8/105, 1:3.5/135, 1:2.5/135 (II), 1:4/150, 1:4/200, 1:4/300, 1:4.5/500, Super-Multi-Coated Macro-TAKUMAR 1:4/50, 1:4/100, Super-Multi-Coated Bellows-TAKUMAR 1:4/100, SMC TAKUMAR 1:1.4/50, 1:1.8/55
M42 Carl Zeiss Jena Flektogon 2.4/35
Contax Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* 28-70mm F3.5-4.5
Pentax K-mount SMC PENTAX-A ZOOM 1:3.5 35~105mm, SMC PENTAX ZOOM 1:4 45~125mm
Nikon Micro-NIKKOR-P-C Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm, NIKKOR-P Auto 105mm f/2.5 Pre-AI (Sonnar), Micro-NIKKOR 105mm 1:4 AI, NIKKOR AI-S 35-135mm f/3,5-4,5
Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (51B), Tamron SP 17mm f/3.5 (151B), SP 500mm f/8 (55BB), SP 70-210mm f/3.5 (19AH)
Vivitar 100mm 1:2.8 MC 1:1 Macro Telephoto (Kiron)
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
I finished adjustment of the rangefinder for Horseman VH-R. And it had not been easy task. Because commonly the adjusting screw is located nearly one of the rangefinder windows, at the top of the camera. But with that camera there is no one here! Fortunately I discovered an article, where the process of adjustment of the rangefinder for that camera is very detailed:
https://lommen9.home.xs4all.nl/Horseman/index.html
The adjusting screw is located at the bottom of the body!
I adjusted it for 150mm Horsemen lens. And discovered, that it works well also for my Heliar 4.5/150mm!
I didn’t yet explored how it is for for Mamiya-Sekor SF C 150mm f4.0 (I need the proper Lens Board for it yet), but I hope it will work with it also.
Also it is slight hope that it also will work and for my Goerz Frontar 14cm 9.0 Achromatic lens with the proper shutter.
http://forum.mflenses.com/goerz-frontar-14cm-9-0-landschaftslinse-t67687.html
It will give to me the proper abundance of tools for the portraits. Which was the main purpose for all that trouble. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
The addition - did try today Goerz Frontar 14cm 9.0 Achromatic lens with the rangefinder and the cum for 150mm lens upon Horseman VH-R.
No way unfortunately.
So - only for the landscapes, and by the matte screen for portraiture. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
Well, did try Mamiya-Sekor SF C 150mm f4.0 with my Horseman VH-R, using cum for 150mm lens.
Unfortunately, the rangefinder didn't cohere well with the lens. It means that again it might be used only with the mate screen.
So, I see that the good congruence of the rangefinder with the Heliar 4.5/150mm was rather the lucky exception. _________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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LittleAlex
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 Posts: 1741 Location: L'vov (Western Ukraine)
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:58 am Post subject: |
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LittleAlex wrote:
On the go with my baby:
_________________ "Sharpness is a bourgeois concept" - © H. Cartier Bresson |
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