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Kiron 28MM F2 on Sony A7
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wonder are these out of focus due to a none flat focus field, or are some of the exit pupils very close to the sensor?

The sony sensor thickness, hits some < 35mm lenses, but I think it is mostly colour smearing.


PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Arutemu wrote:

Wow, the Vivitar one is just embarrassing...


The Nikkor Ai/AiS 2/24mm is just as embarassing ... and so is the Vivitar 2/24mm. Or the Nikkor AiS 1.4/35mm (which is better than the original pre-AI!!). Nothing unusual for fast vintage wideangles. Heck, even the common 2.8/35mm from the 1960s were pretty lousy!

Doc Sharptail wrote:

Wonder if it needs a cleaning... I don't usually see them that bad unless a cleaning is required- at least out of the 28mm Vivitars I've had. Might be sample variation too.

-D.S.

No, this sample is perfectly clear. I have a second sample (actually the first one I bought) which is somehow fogged. "Sharpness" is the same; thus I would say it's not sample variation. Maybe there were different computations ??


Slalom wrote:
Wonder are these out of focus due to a none flat focus field, or are some of the exit pupils very close to the sensor?
The Sony sensor thickness, hits some < 35mm lenses, but I think it is mostly colour smearing.


Some years ago I ran a series of trials using both the A7RII as well the Leica M (240). The latter has a very thin sensor stack. There were obvious differences in corner performance with classic symmetrical wideangles (Leica 1.4/35 ASPH and Zeiss C Biogon 4/21mm). However no differences were seen using retrofocus wideangles or fast normal lenses; their exit pupil isn't close enough to the sensor to cause problems with the A7 series.

S


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:


No, this sample is perfectly clear. I have a second sample (actually the first one I bought) which is somehow fogged. "Sharpness" is the same; thus I would say it's not sample variation. Maybe there were different computations ??



Highly likely with vivitar lenses. I recall something odd with slower wide-angles being different, but that's a heck of a long ways back.

-D.S.


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Komine Vivitar isn't a bad lens. This was shot at F8 or so and the corners look fine to me. It is a bit narrow for F2 (49mm filters) but longer than most 28mm lenses (partly due to it;s close focusing ability, which is the real boon of the lens). At F2 it has less softness than the Kino version also made by Vivitar. I think Robin Parmar who created the Vivitar 28mm Bestiary calls it he best one. Bokeh can be very wonky though.

Sprikkenburg View by The lens profile, on Flickr


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
The Komine Vivitar isn't a bad lens. This was shot at F8 or so and the corners look fine to me. It is a bit narrow for F2 (49mm filters) but longer than most 28mm lenses (partly due to it;s close focusing ability, which is the real boon of the lens). At F2 it has less softness than the Kino version also made by Vivitar. I think Robin Parmar who created the Vivitar 28mm Bestiary calls it he best one. Bokeh can be very wonky though.


When reading your "49mm filters" I knew something was wrong, since my Vivitar had a larger filter thread. Turns out it was the Vivitar (Komine) 2/24mm I had tested, and NOT the Vivitar (Komine) 2/28mm!!

Sorry for this grave mistake. I have corrected my previous postings.

Interestingly. the small house shown in the 100% crops of my test seems to be as big in the image taken with the 24mm Vivitar as with 28mm Kiron & Minolta ... !! That probably did contribute to my error ...

S


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
The Komine Vivitar isn't a bad lens. This was shot at F8 or so and the corners look fine to me.
It is a bit narrow for F2 (49mm filters) but longer than most 28mm lenses (partly due to it;s close focusing ability, which is the real
boon of the lens). At F2 it has less softness than the Kino version also made by Vivitar. I think Robin Parmar who created the Vivitar 28mm
Bestiary calls it he best one. Bokeh can be very wonky though.


When reading your "49mm filters" I knew something was wrong, since my Vivitar had a larger filter thread. Turns out it was the
Vivitar (Komine) 2/24mm I had tested, and NOT the Vivitar (Komine) 2/28mm!!

Sorry for this grave mistake. I have corrected my previous postings.

Interestingly, the small house shown in the 100% crops of my test seems to be as big in the image taken with the 24mm Vivitar
as with 28mm Kiron & Minolta ... !! That probably did contribute to my error ...

S


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
D1N0 wrote:
The Komine Vivitar isn't a bad lens. This was shot at F8 or so and the corners look fine to me. It is a bit narrow for F2 (49mm filters) but longer than most 28mm lenses (partly due to it;s close focusing ability, which is the real boon of the lens). At F2 it has less softness than the Kino version also made by Vivitar. I think Robin Parmar who created the Vivitar 28mm Bestiary calls it he best one. Bokeh can be very wonky though.


When reading your "49mm filters" I knew something was wrong, since my Vivitar had a larger filter thread. Turns out it was the Vivitar (Komine) 2/24mm I had tested, and NOT the Vivitar (Komine) 2/28mm!!

Sorry for this grave mistake. I have corrected my previous postings.

Interestingly. the small house shown in the 100% crops of my test seems to be as big in the image taken with the 24mm Vivitar as with 28mm Kiron & Minolta ... !! That probably did contribute to my error ...

S


Interestingly I have a Komine 24mm 2.5 in Panagor. Could be the same as the Vivitar but misstating the aperture by .5 is rather much, even for Vivitar. It is soft wide open, but haven really done serious photography with it yet.

Panagor Auto Wide-Angle 24mm 1:2.5 (Komine) by The lens profile, on Flickr


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:

Interestingly I have a Komine 24mm 2.5 in Panagor. Could be the same as the Vivitar ...


I don't think so. My Vivitar (Komine) 2/24mm seems to see a bit longer, and it's exit pupil is rather large (too big for a 2.5/24 I would say).

S


PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
D1N0 wrote:

Interestingly I have a Komine 24mm 2.5 in Panagor. Could be the same as the Vivitar ...


I don't think so. My Vivitar (Komine) 2/24mm seems to see a bit longer, and it's exit pupil is rather large (too big for a 2.5/24 I would say).

S


Must be a different version then. The Panagor takes 55mm filters not 52mm.


PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Arutemu wrote:
I have that lens too. Not too concerned about the corners, but flaring can be problematic, unless used creatively. Flaring at night is downright annoying. So are distortions, but that's to be expected from 28mm. Still can't bring myself to like this focal length, despite having several.


I like that creatively used flaring. It´s a great picture. Thanks for sharing!


PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:


When reading your "49mm filters" I knew something was wrong, since my Vivitar had a larger filter thread. Turns out it was the Vivitar (Komine) 2/24mm I had tested, and NOT the Vivitar (Komine) 2/28mm!!


I have that Vivitar (Komine) 24mm f/2.
When you presented the images saying it´s the 28mm specimen of the Vivitar f2 wide angles, I was intrigued how similar it renders compared to the 24mm. Turns out it was the 24mm f2 all along Laughing
Btw I can confirm all said above is true for the 24mm as well. Nice bokeh, good colors, very prone to flare and performing rather bad in the corners when used wider open than f8.

That one was taken with low ISO and rather wide open aperture. Not f/2 though, probably 2.8 or 4.


Here´s a crop from the lower right corner.



PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
My Panagor 24mm 2.5 is definitely different. Two corners at F2.5 and F8 100% crop on my 36mp K-1

2.5


8


PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ZuikosHexanonsandVivitars wrote:

I have that Vivitar (Komine) 24mm f/2.
When you presented the images saying it´s the 28mm specimen of the Vivitar f2 wide angles, I was intrigued how similar it renders compared to the 24mm. Turns out it was the 24mm f2 all along Laughing


The images from Swiss towns I presented earlier were taken with the Kiron 2/28mm, NOT with the Vivitar (Komina) 2/24mm. Only the 100% corner crops shown later in the thread were from the Vivitar 2/24mm (and from the Kiron 2/28mm and Minolta MD 2/28mm, of coure).

S


PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
in normal daylight shooting i don't care for this lens over any other, but that f/2 at dusk is well dreamy




#1


#2


PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
It was a wonderful chance to visit this kind of site and I am happy to know all about it.


PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
While looking for another lens in the attic, I stumbled upon three more Kiron made f2 wideangles I more or less had forgotten. Here they are, together with the two samples shwon earlier in this thread:



From left to right:

1) Kiron 28mm 1:2 (Minolta MD bayonet)
2) Kiron 28mm 1:2 (Minolta MD bayonet)
3) Vivitar (Kiron made, SN 22...) 28mm 1:2 (Canon FD bayonet)
3) Vivitar (Kiron made, SN 22...) 24mm 1:2 (Canon FD bayonet)
3) Vivitar (Kiron made, SN 22...) 24mm 1:2 (Konica AR bayonet)

Three things are interesing and remarkable:

* The Kiron 2/28mm does NOT have the same optical construction as the Kiron-made Vivitar 2/28mm (clearly different reflections on the lens surfaces!)

* the Canon FD mount Vivitar lenses 2/28mm and 2/24mm look nearly identical

* The two Vivitar 2/24mm lenses seem to have the same optical construction (judging from the reflexes), but their barrel is quite different (larger focus ring on the Konica AR version)


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2025 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
While looking for another lens in the attic, I stumbled upon three more Kiron made f2 wideangles I more or less had forgotten. Here they are, together with the two samples shwon earlier in this thread:



From left to right:

1) Kiron 28mm 1:2 (Minolta MD bayonet)
2) Kiron 28mm 1:2 (Minolta MD bayonet)
3) Vivitar (Kiron made, SN 22...) 28mm 1:2 (Canon FD bayonet)
3) Vivitar (Kiron made, SN 22...) 24mm 1:2 (Canon FD bayonet)
3) Vivitar (Kiron made, SN 22...) 24mm 1:2 (Konica AR bayonet)

Three things are interesing and remarkable:

* The Kiron 2/28mm does NOT have the same optical construction as the Kiron-made Vivitar 2/28mm (clearly different reflections on the lens surfaces!)


Just bought a Vivitar Auto Wide-Angle 28mm 2.0 (K12 see link below) with a dented filter ring and some scratches. Front cell turned off quite easily so someone has been there before. 9 Euro in a recycling shop so no regrets so far.

There are also at least two versions of the Vivitar 28mm 2.0 with a serial number starting with 22 (so both Kiron made). For example the focusing ring turns 260 degrees on the older Auto Wide-Angle (non MC) where the MC version turns about 90 degrees. Exterior lens surface sizes differ too. There is more to it: https://www.pentaxforums.com/userreviews/vivitar-28mm-f2-mc-m-series.html mentions three types: K11, K12, K13.

I already knew it had a good reputation on film. Checked this lens type further I came across three lens diagrams on different websites. Two probably represent the same lens but one differs. All are 8 elements 8 groups designs. The two with the lens mechanical construction also shown look similar on that aspect but differ in the shape of some elements. So probably from the same manufacturer but different versions/generations. While I have learned that lens diagrams on the web not always represent the lens shown there it might be a clue for what you observed.

EDit: after disassembling more of the lens and observing its interior mechanism at work, I now am quite sure that my K12 (and possibly the K13) is like the two first lens diagrams. The front of the rear cell is plane, the rear of the front cell is slightly concave. The lens is not unit focusing but has floating elements so it may differ from the tested Kiron 28mm 2.0 discussed in this thread. When focusing for nearby the rear cell plus the aperture move about 4mm forward, the front cell 3,25mm, so spacing between the two cells shrinks by 0,75mm. Maybe a primitive form of floating elements but nevertheless not unit focusing. To make it easy for owners of a Vivitar (Kiron made) 28mm 2.0: if the rear cell does not turn when the focusing ring is turned and the front cell does turn like the focusing ring then you have a floating elements type.




The last cross cut shows a mechanism that does not have two different thread pitch helicoids needed for the different movements between the two lens cells. It could be a Kiron or Kiron Vivitar lens without that floating elements design.

Last edited by Ernst Dinkla on Fri Feb 14, 2025 3:14 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2025 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
marcusBMG wrote:
Very nice images Steve, and eddieitman.
Between the komine made viv 28/2 and the kiron/viv 28/2 lenses that I looked out for and eventually acquired in PKA mounts, i tend to prefer the kiron.

Interesting. Today (before seeing your posting!), looking for a Sigma 13.5/1000mm mirror I hadn't used for ages, I stumbled upon a Vivitar/Komine 2/28mm ... I probably will compare the two lenses tomorrow, if I have time.

EDIT: IT WAS NOT A VIVITAR 2/28MM BUT A VIVITAR 2/24MM!!



marcusBMG wrote:
I think it is a lens for taking pictures with rather than scrutinising corner pixels.
Mind you it seems like most of the 28's I try out on my standard test pic of the castle leave me unimpressed - I wonder if it is something about the way the light gets to the sensor on a dslr...


Which DSLR are you using? Generally speaking I don't think it's the sensor, but more the fact that most 2.8/28mm lenses were "budget" lenses: competition in the f2.8 (or f3.5) segment was tough, and fast (i. e. f2) 28mm lenses were difficult to design.

S


On an unrelated subject, this image really illustrates the difference in helicoid focus throw. It's pretty hard to nail focus with a very short focus throw (the kiron above), and I find this is a problem with some of the Voigtlander lenses such as the 50/2 apo. I'd rather a long focus throw like that vivitar any day.

I had the Kiron 28/2 many years ago and really liked it's wide open quirkiness but the aperture wouldn't stay where I left it and would slide towards F2.8. Not sure if this is a common problem with this lens or just my copy.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
Looking for something else (ie another lens) on the attic I stumbled upon a Kiron 2/28mm and decided to play around with it

I suggest that you try it reversed for macro, where it is rather good.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Dan Eurritt has also tested the kiron 28mm f2, and a kiron made vivitar 28mm f2, against other lenses see here.

https://www.codectest.com/2014/28mm-camera-lens-comparison-on-the-sony-a7r-first-round

https://www.codectest.com/2014/28mm-prime-lens-comparison-shot-on-sony-a7r-second-round

At f10 the kirons shows well.


PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2025 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Short request in relation to my first message in this thread. Does your Kiron or Vivitar (Kiron made) 28mm 2.0 front side rotate together with the focusing ring? If so, is the rear lens cell then also rotating?


PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The whole optical block on my kiron 28mm f2 moves as a unit with the rotation of the focus ring, without rotating. Corroborates the mechanics of the diagram.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
marcusBMG wrote:
The whole optical block on my kiron 28mm f2 moves as a unit with the rotation of the focus ring, without rotating. Corroborates the mechanics of the diagram.


Interesting ...... checking the parts in this repair story I see the Kiron character in the mechanical parts but a third helicoid missing that I see in the Vivitar version I have. https://www.flickr.com/photos/paulojgomes/2989263974/in/photostream/

Your's could still have a floating element design though. A difference might be measurable between the exterior parts of the front and rear lens cells on how much each travels from infinity to MFD. I do not think that another type of floating element design is used in them, say a single element in the interior or a fixed element at the rear.

EDit: if it has no floating element then the third diagram could resemble it more.

Last edited by Ernst Dinkla on Thu Feb 20, 2025 11:44 am; edited 1 time in total


PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
No discernable difference in the movement front and rear on the kiron. Looking at my own repair piece on sticky iris fix:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/114-maintenance-repair-articles/391582-kiron-vivitar-28mm-f2-24mm-f2-sticky-iris-fix.html

The vivs have independent front and rear optical blocks. I've not had a kiron apart.


PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2025 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
marcusBMG wrote:
No discernable difference in the movement front and rear on the kiron. Looking at my own repair piece on sticky iris fix:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/114-maintenance-repair-articles/391582-kiron-vivitar-28mm-f2-24mm-f2-sticky-iris-fix.html

The vivs have independent front and rear optical blocks. I've not had a kiron apart.


Correct. They look so similar but internally they may differ more than most people think.
If there are no different versions within the Kiron and/or the Vivitar (Kiron) type range that may have more in common than the exterior.

The movements within my Vivitar K12 type are as shown in this image, take the measurements with some salt though:



The total design kept some slack on the helicoids lengths for different mounts I think. It was not just a thicker/thinner mount flange at the rear to bridge the differences in register distance. Any DIY mount replacement on that lens should go along with a good calibration, not just infinity but also on the cell spacing then.

EDit, BTW I am not even sure whether this the 28mm 2.0 or the 24mm 2.0 lens diagram. Parts are very like my K12 28mm 2.0 but the focusing ring dimensions and shape look different.
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