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Jupiter-6 lens with problems
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Jupiter-6 lens with problems Reply with quote
Hello my friends!
I am in need of some advice...

Got a very nice Jupiter-6 180mm f/2.8 lens a few days ago... purple coating, 000 serial number etc.
Originally in M39 mount, it has been "converted" to M42, the seller saying that a converter ring has been glued to the mount.

Now, when screwing the lens to the M42->Canon EOS adapter, it doesn't get screwed tightly as it usually does with the adapter and other lenses; there is a visible margin between the adapter and the lens, and you could even stick a measuring tape in that margin...

Any other lens:



Jupiter-6:







This also makes the tripod connection part be on the upper part of the lens, while logically it should be on the bottom...



I also noticed some strange black ring on the mount of the lens; it doesn't seem to be a part of the mount, and the adapter doesn't go over it; it is noticeably larger in diameter... maybe this is the thing preventing the lens screwing tightly to the adapter?



Now, what's the big deal?, one might ask...
The thing is that when testing the lens, I noticed that it has a focus shift of ~50cm to the front; when the image appears in perfect focus on the split screen, the green light & red dot appear, and you hear the "beep", you shoot, but it is not the object at the distance you set which is in focus, but what is 50cm closer to you!

The lens is usable, but this focus shift is quite annoying, substantially slowing things down; and I really don't feel like focusing in the DSLR screen with the live view mode Smile

So, anybody had such, or a similar situation before, and can suggest a solution to this problem?


PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
take off mount and remove glued crap or look why not screw fully into your adapter , I think thread is damaged.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I go with Attila, the thread seems to be damaged.
One question: you achieve perfect infinity focus with the lens?
Overall, the lens seems to have been "repaired" by an few competent amateur repairman. If it really worth the price you payed, keep it; otherwise, return to the seller.

Cheers,

Renato


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Unless you got a great deal, I'd return it and look for one that hasn't had the threads messed with, what kind of glue was used? I bought some nice brass M39 to M42 adapter rings off of eBay that don't have any shim/washer that will mess with infinity, a dab of blue Loctite will hold the adapter on tight, but it can still be forced off relatively easy.
Good luck.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are two kinds of M39 to M42 adapters, and the one used here is of the wrong kind which has a collar preventing the lens from mounting flat. The working version is just like a piece of tube with threads on both surfaces and no collar so it just changes the diameter of the lens mount threads and fits completely inside an M42 to EOS adapter. Both versions can be found on eBay or at least used to be.

Veijo


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Jupiter-6 lens with problems Reply with quote
Misha_M wrote:
Hello my friends!
The thing is that when testing the lens, I noticed that it has a focus shift of ~50cm to the front; when the image appears in perfect focus on the split screen, the green light & red dot appear, and you hear the "beep", you shoot, but it is not the object at the distance you set which is in focus, but what is 50cm closer to you!

The lens is usable, but this focus shift is quite annoying, substantially slowing things down; and I really don't feel like focusing in the DSLR screen with the live view mode Smile

The "focus shift" has absolutely nothing to do with the adapter. Rather, it's a matter of your camera's focusing screen and mirror box alignment. If the lens is able to reach infinity (you can test with Live View), then it's OK.

Regarding the mounting at the wrong angle, this is rather typical for M39 lenses brutally adapted to M42 mount. Most probably the owner used the wrong adapter ring. It can be fixed by undoing the conversion and using the proper M39-M42 ring (plenty of those on eBay, and very cheap, too). Even then, the lens won't sit perfectly straight in the mount; expect some 20-30 degrees angle.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Looks to me like it's has an M39 to M42 ring screwed on it. The reason it won't screw all the way into the M42-EOS adapter and aligns upside down is that your M42-EOS adapter has a flange, a flangeless adapter would probably solve your problem.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Jupiter-6 lens with problems Reply with quote
aoleg wrote:
Misha_M wrote:
Hello my friends!
The thing is that when testing the lens, I noticed that it has a focus shift of ~50cm to the front; when the image appears in perfect focus on the split screen, the green light & red dot appear, and you hear the "beep", you shoot, but it is not the object at the distance you set which is in focus, but what is 50cm closer to you!

The lens is usable, but this focus shift is quite annoying, substantially slowing things down; and I really don't feel like focusing in the DSLR screen with the live view mode Smile

The "focus shift" has absolutely nothing to do with the adapter. Rather, it's a matter of your camera's focusing screen and mirror box alignment. If the lens is able to reach infinity (you can test with Live View), then it's OK.

Regarding the mounting at the wrong angle, this is rather typical for M39 lenses brutally adapted to M42 mount. Most probably the owner used the wrong adapter ring. It can be fixed by undoing the conversion and using the proper M39-M42 ring (plenty of those on eBay, and very cheap, too). Even then, the lens won't sit perfectly straight in the mount; expect some 20-30 degrees angle.


About the focus shift, I +1.

But I don't get it about the wrong m39->m42 adapter. I never seen "wrong" one, how do they look? I have several adapter, and all are working goog.

Also, as said Ian, using non flanged adapter can be usefull (like in this case), especial for non really standart m42 mounts. Better to have both type of adapter.


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Jupiter-6 lens with problems Reply with quote
BurstMox wrote:

But I don't get it about the wrong m39->m42 adapter. I never seen "wrong" one, how do they look? I have several adapter, and all are working goog.


In this case the adapter ought to look like Click here to see on Ebay so that it can go completely inside the M42 to EOS adapter. The wrong kind looks like Click here to see on Ebay, i.e., it has a 1 mm flange on the M39 side -- the flange makes it easy to remove the adapter but prevents the lens from mounting flat on the M42 to EOS adapter. This kind of adapter is OK if you want to use RF lenses for macros but not OK for M39 SLR lenses.

Veijo


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Oh, ok, got it, thanks


PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilva wrote:
There are two kinds of M39 to M42 adapters, and the one used here is of the wrong kind which has a collar preventing the lens from mounting flat. The working version is just like a piece of tube with threads on both surfaces and no collar so it just changes the diameter of the lens mount threads and fits completely inside an M42 to EOS adapter. Both versions can be found on eBay or at least used to be.

Veijo


hmm... can you show me the 2 kinds of adapters, please?
I have an M39->M42 adapter, and it's just a ring, so I guess I have the right kind Smile

Anyway, somebody can recommend a good and safe way of removing a superglued adapter ring?

aoleg wrote:
Misha_M wrote:
Hello my friends!
The thing is that when testing the lens, I noticed that it has a focus shift of ~50cm to the front; when the image appears in perfect focus on the split screen, the green light & red dot appear, and you hear the "beep", you shoot, but it is not the object at the distance you set which is in focus, but what is 50cm closer to you!

The lens is usable, but this focus shift is quite annoying, substantially slowing things down; and I really don't feel like focusing in the DSLR screen with the live view mode Smile

The "focus shift" has absolutely nothing to do with the adapter. Rather, it's a matter of your camera's focusing screen and mirror box alignment. If the lens is able to reach infinity (you can test with Live View), then it's OK.

Regarding the mounting at the wrong angle, this is rather typical for M39 lenses brutally adapted to M42 mount. Most probably the owner used the wrong adapter ring. It can be fixed by undoing the conversion and using the proper M39-M42 ring (plenty of those on eBay, and very cheap, too). Even then, the lens won't sit perfectly straight in the mount; expect some 20-30 degrees angle.


The focusing screen and mirror box are fine; I use plenty of other M42 and M39 lenses, and focus is always dead on...

iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Looks to me like it's has an M39 to M42 ring screwed on it. The reason it won't screw all the way into the M42-EOS adapter and aligns upside down is that your M42-EOS adapter has a flange, a flangeless adapter would probably solve your problem.


vilva wrote:
BurstMox wrote:

But I don't get it about the wrong m39->m42 adapter. I never seen "wrong" one, how do they look? I have several adapter, and all are working goog.


In this case the adapter ought to look like Click here to see on Ebay so that it can go completely inside the M42 to EOS adapter. The wrong kind looks like Click here to see on Ebay, i.e., it has a 1 mm flange on the M39 side -- the flange makes it easy to remove the adapter but prevents the lens from mounting flat on the M42 to EOS adapter. This kind of adapter is OK if you want to use RF lenses for macros but not OK for M39 SLR lenses.

Veijo


Wait, are you talking about the M39->M42 adapter, or the M42->EOS adapter?
Haven't ever seen an M42->EOS adapter which has no flange on it... it must have it for the electronic connection on the Canon side, no?


PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Misha_M wrote:
vilva wrote:

In this case the adapter ought to look like Click here to see on Ebay so that it can go completely inside the M42 to EOS adapter. The wrong kind looks like Click here to see on Ebay, i.e., it has a 1 mm flange on the M39 side -- the flange makes it easy to remove the adapter but prevents the lens from mounting flat on the M42 to EOS adapter. This kind of adapter is OK if you want to use RF lenses for macros but not OK for M39 SLR lenses.

Veijo


Wait, are you talking about the M39->M42 adapter, or the M42->EOS adapter?


M39->M42

Quote:
Haven't ever seen an M42->EOS adapter which has no flange on it... it must have it for the electronic connection on the Canon side, no?


The original purpose of the flange was to push in the aperture pin of lenses with one, and it still is as some lenses are more or less useless otherwise. The electronic chips came later on. I've got a couple of adapters without flanges, I use them with lenses which have fully manual apertures.

BTW, I don't use chipped M42->EOS adapters at all as I have no problems focusing without them and often found them just a distraction - or unreliable with some of my very slow lenses.

Veijo


PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Flangeless adapters are available on ebay.

I never found the focus chips to be much use. What I did find essential with an EOS was to replace the useless non-matte focus screen with a matte one, otherwise, trying to focus a manual lens on an EOS is nigh-on impossible.


PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

I never found the focus chips to be much use. What I did find essential with an EOS was to replace the useless non-matte focus screen with a matte one, otherwise, trying to focus a manual lens on an EOS is nigh-on impossible.


Well, I never had any difficulty focusing with the original screens. I started with a 350D and still mainly use it although I have also got a 5D, which has mostly been gathering dust for the last four or five years. I quickly learned to use a kind of visual contrast detect method, which is almost fail-safe once you get the knack of it. This skill has been very useful to me even with my Nikon 1 V1 although V1 doesn't provide even EVF magnification when used with foreign MF lenses - OTOH, judging the OOF areas is much easier with the EVF than with any normal focus screen I've ever used.

Veijo


PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilva wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

I never found the focus chips to be much use. What I did find essential with an EOS was to replace the useless non-matte focus screen with a matte one, otherwise, trying to focus a manual lens on an EOS is nigh-on impossible.


Well, I never had any difficulty focusing with the original screens. I started with a 350D and still mainly use it although I have also got a 5D, which has mostly been gathering dust for the last four or five years. I quickly learned to use a kind of visual contrast detect method, which is almost fail-safe once you get the knack of it. This skill has been very useful to me even with my Nikon 1 V1 although V1 doesn't provide even EVF magnification when used with foreign MF lenses - OTOH, judging the OOF areas is much easier with the EVF than with any normal focus screen I've ever used.

Veijo


I often use a similar method on my OM-D! I can see true the viewfinder where the sharpness is without focus assist or magnified view. The sharpest area have "jumping pixels". However, the technique doesn't work that good on soft lenses, it's more difficult to notice Wink


PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilva wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

I never found the focus chips to be much use. What I did find essential with an EOS was to replace the useless non-matte focus screen with a matte one, otherwise, trying to focus a manual lens on an EOS is nigh-on impossible.


Well, I never had any difficulty focusing with the original screens. I started with a 350D and still mainly use it although I have also got a 5D, which has mostly been gathering dust for the last four or five years. I quickly learned to use a kind of visual contrast detect method, which is almost fail-safe once you get the knack of it. This skill has been very useful to me even with my Nikon 1 V1 although V1 doesn't provide even EVF magnification when used with foreign MF lenses - OTOH, judging the OOF areas is much easier with the EVF than with any normal focus screen I've ever used.

Veijo


Can you put a link to a flangeless M42->EOS adapter on ebay?
Do any of them have AF confirm?

Also, would be glad to hear further and more in depth explanations on the focusing method you mentioned.

P.S:
If you're not using the 5D, maybe you should sell it Smile


PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The best way to reach infinity:

-1 set infinity and then untight the screws on the focus ring
-2 check if the ring is free, and set it at shorter distance, then tight just one screw, and set real infinity by LV, or as you like better
-3 untight the screw, place the ring at infinity, and finally tight all the screws


Here is my Jupiter-6 M39 mount
http://forum.mflenses.com/by-jupiter-beware-180-f2-8-inside-t56856.html

I screwed on a M39 to M42 adapter and then a M42 to Eos. You'll notice that the M42 to Eos adapter don't reach perfectly the bottom of the lens. It's better this way, else you can't easily push the lens release button on the camera's body.
You'll notice that the tripod mount initially was on top like yours. I screwed it very tight and gained quite a lot of turn and decided to let the adapter definitely on the lens. If I remember correctly, little screws around the back lens can be unscrewed and the mount turned.

I too had issues with focusing to infinity. With the upper method given by our member Ultrapix, everything was solved very easily.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Olivier wrote:
The best way to reach infinity:

-1 set infinity and then untight the screws on the focus ring
-2 check if the ring is free, and set it at shorter distance, then tight just one screw, and set real infinity by LV, or as you like better
-3 untight the screw, place the ring at infinity, and finally tight all the screws


Here is my Jupiter-6 M39 mount
http://forum.mflenses.com/by-jupiter-beware-180-f2-8-inside-t56856.html

I screwed on a M39 to M42 adapter and then a M42 to Eos. You'll notice that the M42 to Eos adapter don't reach perfectly the bottom of the lens. It's better this way, else you can't easily push the lens release button on the camera's body.
You'll notice that the tripod mount initially was on top like yours. I screwed it very tight and gained quite a lot of turn and decided to let the adapter definitely on the lens. If I remember correctly, little screws around the back lens can be unscrewed and the mount turned.

I too had issues with focusing to infinity. With the upper method given by our member Ultrapix, everything was solved very easily.


Hmm... when you did this and got infinity focus, did it effect focusing at other distances as well?
So to get things right, I have to unscrew the mount, set it to the desired position, and re-screw it?


PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilva wrote:
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:

I never found the focus chips to be much use. What I did find essential with an EOS was to replace the useless non-matte focus screen with a matte one, otherwise, trying to focus a manual lens on an EOS is nigh-on impossible.


Well, I never had any difficulty focusing with the original screens. I started with a 350D and still mainly use it although I have also got a 5D, which has mostly been gathering dust for the last four or five years. I quickly learned to use a kind of visual contrast detect method, which is almost fail-safe once you get the knack of it. This skill has been very useful to me even with my Nikon 1 V1 although V1 doesn't provide even EVF magnification when used with foreign MF lenses - OTOH, judging the OOF areas is much easier with the EVF than with any normal focus screen I've ever used.

Veijo


Why do you use the 350D if you have a 5D? I had a 10D which is the same sensor as the 350D and the output was poor, to say the least. I still wonder if that camera had an issue because it was so poor.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Misha_M wrote:
Olivier wrote:
The best way to reach infinity:

-1 set infinity and then untight the screws on the focus ring
-2 check if the ring is free, and set it at shorter distance, then tight just one screw, and set real infinity by LV, or as you like better
-3 untight the screw, place the ring at infinity, and finally tight all the screws

I too had issues with focusing to infinity. With the upper method given by our member Ultrapix, everything was solved very easily.


Hmm... when you did this and got infinity focus, did it effect focusing at other distances as well?
So to get things right, I have to unscrew the mount, set it to the desired position, and re-screw it?

It corrected focusing and restored its range to initial values. Focusing range was closer but didn't reach infinity. Now its closest range is 2,00 meters as mentioned in its caracteristics.

To be very precise, you have to untight the screws on the focus ring to set infinity.

To reposition the tripod mount, it's the 6 screws at back of the lens wich has to be unscrewed.


PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Those infinity focusing issues are normal with zenit M39 mount lenses.
There is some difference in the register distance between M39 and M42, being the M39 slightly longer.


PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Misha_M wrote:

Can you put a link to a flangeless M42->EOS adapter on ebay?
Do any of them have AF confirm?


Here you have two links, one without AF confirm and one with:
Click here to see on Ebay
Click here to see on Ebay

They are recognizable by the fact that the threads go all through. They are available, but I cannot think of any reason to use them.

Misha_M wrote:
Also, would be glad to hear further and more in depth explanations on the focusing method you mentioned.


First of all, the method is a little bit more difficult with very fast lenses and very wide lenses so you better practice with a 50 mm lens or longer at f/4 or so aiming at a target a couple of meters away, preferably one with some high contrast details. Turn the focus ring slowly trying to perceive when the view of the details achieves high clarity and then starts to go dimmer again. At that point just turn very slowly back trying to stop at the clearest point. You may have to go back and forth a few times before succeeding to stop at just the correct spot -- it is just like the contrast detect AF system of P&S cameras behaves before nailing the focus. Then de-focus and repeat several times trying to gain speed. After you feel somewhat sure of yourself, switch to a larger aperture or a wider lens. Practice, practice and practice.

Misha_M wrote:
P.S:
If you're not using the 5D, maybe you should sell it Smile


I've considered selling it but haven' got around to doing it. We'll see.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
vilva wrote:

Well, I never had any difficulty focusing with the original screens. I started with a 350D and still mainly use it although I have also got a 5D, which has mostly been gathering dust for the last four or five years.


Why do you use the 350D if you have a 5D? I had a 10D which is the same sensor as the 350D and the output was poor, to say the least. I still wonder if that camera had an issue because it was so poor.


Well, 350D is smaller and lighter, feels much better in my hands and is easier to travel with. The IQ has been definitely good enough for my kind of shooting with all kinds of lenses, soft or sharp. I hardly ever shoot with wider lenses than 50 mm FF -- between 2008 and 2012 about 90% of my photos were with my soft-focus Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar 105/4.5 on 350D, most often my only lens when travelling. 5D is a better pinhole or fish-eye camera, though Smile

If I can find or construct a decent 50 mm soft-focus lens, my Nikon 1 V1 will most probably replace both my EOS cameras in my day to day use, at home and abroad. It has enough Mpixels, the OOC colors are very good, the noise is nice, the output very film like, the native lenses range from good to very good to excellent+, and using foreign MF lenses is a pleasure compared to EOS.

Veijo


PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
vilva wrote:
Misha_M wrote:

Can you put a link to a flangeless M42->EOS adapter on ebay?
Do any of them have AF confirm?


Here you have two links, one without AF confirm and one with:
Click here to see on Ebay
Click here to see on Ebay

They are recognizable by the fact that the threads go all through. They are available, but I cannot think of any reason to use them.

Misha_M wrote:
Also, would be glad to hear further and more in depth explanations on the focusing method you mentioned.


First of all, the method is a little bit more difficult with very fast lenses and very wide lenses so you better practice with a 50 mm lens or longer at f/4 or so aiming at a target a couple of meters away, preferably one with some high contrast details. Turn the focus ring slowly trying to perceive when the view of the details achieves high clarity and then starts to go dimmer again. At that point just turn very slowly back trying to stop at the clearest point. You may have to go back and forth a few times before succeeding to stop at just the correct spot -- it is just like the contrast detect AF system of P&S cameras behaves before nailing the focus. Then de-focus and repeat several times trying to gain speed. After you feel somewhat sure of yourself, switch to a larger aperture or a wider lens. Practice, practice and practice.

Misha_M wrote:
P.S:
If you're not using the 5D, maybe you should sell it Smile


I've considered selling it but haven' got around to doing it. We'll see.

Veijo


Thanks, will give it a go!

I am still thinking about that black ring... can it be a part of the lens itself?

Can owners of Jupier 6 lenses please photograph the mount side of their lenses and post here?
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