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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
JJB wrote:
I have enjoyed photography since I was a teenager but the increasing automation of the process increasingly left me disenchanted. These days with a smart phone or a relatively cheap digital P&S, anyone can take a good picture but you need more to aspire to great pictures. Scrolling through endless menus or ceding control to the camera was divorcing me from the process. With the rediscovery of the manipulation and choice of manual lenses, I find myself reconnected to the process and seeing the world differently. I am attentive to small moments of beauty every day that might otherwise have gone unnoticed. Whether I can capture them to my satisfaction is another matter entirely. But it makes the successes more rewarding and I feel like I can move past the generic.

So I would say selective and discerning. I'm glad I found this place.


Very well said, Judy. I'm pleased that you are here.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
We are a small but vocal group, when the manufactures get a camera right for us, it generally means it will make many PRO's happy for their uses.
The sad thing is that the vast majority of interchangeable lens users don't know that you can use old manual lenses on their cameras, I see new converts almost every day on the forums, most of those are surprised to see the quality of their pictures improve, which is what happened to me, I was lazy with AF and zooms, My pictures were akin to snapshots, using manual glass has slowed the process down and forced me to become part of the process.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lightshow wrote:
... using manual glass has slowed the process down and forced me to become part of the process.


Exactly.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is the A7 used much by pros?
I did not get that impression, it seems to me they all have the FF Nikon's and Canons.

Do you guys know?


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
The A7 series are selling pretty well in Hong Kong. I think many people buy them for using manual focus lenses.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
Is the A7 used much by pros?
I did not get that impression, it seems to me they all have the FF Nikon's and Canons.

Do you guys know?


That is about the size of it.
It is the lenses range - both AF and very fast - that attracts the pros - Canon and Nikon have these in spades.
OH


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
luisalegria wrote:
Is the A7 used much by pros?
I did not get that impression, it seems to me they all have the FF Nikon's and Canons.

Do you guys know?


Luis: It will take some time before most professionals start thinking other than Nikon and Canon. Even amateurs gravitate to those names based on reputation. I am a Sony user because I was a decades long Minolta owner and I learned that I could use Minolta A-mount lenses on the Sony, although not the older Rokkor lenses. Still, it gave me a cost advantage. I had strongly considered Pentax at the time. Since purchasing my second Sony, the NEX-5N, I have become quite satisfied with the quality, and of course the mirrorless gives us MF lens flexibility. I think Sony is going to make significant progress toward market share and may overtake Nikon well before challenging Canon. Where Sony will excel is in leading with technology, which they're been doing. I had some reluctance about Sony because they are a consumer electronics company as opposed to a camera specific, but I have changed that view. Both Nikon and Canon, aside from the optics, were manufacturers of mechanical cameras, then with some basic electronics. They have had to make a major transition to an electronic device. Sony, on the other hand, have been a leading electronics company from their beginning and that is where their expertise lies.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
luisalegria wrote:
Is the A7 used much by pros?
I did not get that impression, it seems to me they all have the FF Nikon's and Canons.

Do you guys know?


Luis: It will take some time before most professionals start thinking other than Nikon and Canon. Even amateurs gravitate to those names based on reputation. I am a Sony user because I was a decades long Minolta owner and I learned that I could use Minolta A-mount lenses on the Sony, although not the older Rokkor lenses. Still, it gave me a cost advantage. I had strongly considered Pentax at the time. Since purchasing my second Sony, the NEX-5N, I have become quite satisfied with the quality, and of course the mirrorless gives us MF lens flexibility. I think Sony is going to make significant progress toward market share and may overtake Nikon well before challenging Canon. Where Sony will excel is in leading with technology, which they're been doing. I had some reluctance about Sony because they are a consumer electronics company as opposed to a camera specific, but I have changed that view. Both Nikon and Canon, aside from the optics, were manufacturers of mechanical cameras, then with some basic electronics. They have had to make a major transition to an electronic device. Sony, on the other hand, have been a leading electronics company from their beginning and that is where their expertise lies.


... and there is the rub.
Until Sony can offer a comparable range of fast AF and fast aperture lenses to match Canon and Nikon, they will not be taken seriously by professionals.
OH


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
dan_ wrote:
...I have never seen on the streets someone else using vintage MF lenses.....


That's the clue: I'ver never seen someone savour a high class single malt in the public, but too many people are to be seen drunken from cheap drinking on benches.
Means: Probability to meet an other MF user is very low, but we enjoy our passion.

I'd rather be eccentric than common. Wink


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
We definitely are a very tiny minority, I can't remember the last time I saw someone else with an old lens on a new camera, and I live bang in the middle of a hugely popular tourist area that swarms with photographers even in the winter, the area is very photogenic. And probably at least once a week as I walk around here with some old obscure glass on the Sony I will be stopped by a photographer and asked about my kit, because they know so little about how it's done. Some magazines mention using old lenses from time to time, but it's not mainstream information. And many people who I talk to are actually concerned that it involves modification to their camera, rather than a simple adapter. But it's also surprising how many photographers will not even swop between the manufacturers AF lenses, they are scared of getting dust on the sensor so they won't take the lens off.
A friend of mine, and a very good photographer, has a Canon of some sort - a good one - and a lens with the red line around it. We go out together and often take pictures of the same things, his are clinically excellent. He says mine have the character of the lens, and he often admits that they are as sharp or even sharper than his. I've got a EOS to M42 adapter, but he hasn't got the slightest interest in borrowing it and any lens he wants.
Our's is an interest, and appreciation, of the lenses - not what they can do. That is secondary, it's why we use soft lenses, mediocre lenses, uncoated and flaring lenses; we use them because we like the lens as an object and enjoy getting the best out of that lens. If it is a good lens then the joy is great, if the lens is poor then there's joy in the challenge.

I fully agree with Judy's comments about how using old lenses reconnects us with the picture taking process as well, that's exactly how I approach my love of old lenses.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
calvin83 wrote:
The A7 series are selling pretty well in Hong Kong. I think many people buy them for using manual focus lenses.


could it be that rich Chinese that buy all these most rare, exotic and expensive lenses to use on the latest FF mirrorless are enough in numbers for Sony do make us a dream camera? ..only half joking!

I have seen quite a number of photographers using old manual lenses, but most usually on old film bodies, in various countries around Asia. The number of users of manual lenses on both film and also new digital cameras in Saigon seems to be rather high. here I do meet them regularly admit that they meet up on Sunday mornings in a certain park and are less often sen around the city.

I am responsible for having converted at least two earlier AF lens users only manual focus lens user! I am a bit proud of this Smile


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kuuan wrote:
calvin83 wrote:
The A7 series are selling pretty well in Hong Kong. I think many people buy them for using manual focus lenses.


could it be that rich Chinese that buy all these most rare, exotic and expensive lenses to use on the latest FF mirrorless are enough in numbers for Sony do make us a dream camera? ..only half joking!

I have seen quite a number of photographers using old manual lenses, but most usually on old film bodies, in various countries around Asia. The number of users of manual lenses on both film and also new digital cameras in Saigon seems to be rather high. here I do meet them regularly admit that they meet up on Sunday mornings in a certain park and are less often sen around the city.

I am responsible for having converted at least two earlier AF lens users only manual focus lens user! I am a bit proud of this Smile

Exactly. The price of an A7 is nothing compare to expensive lenses(Angenieux/Cooke/Dallmeyer/Kinoptik/Leica/Zeiss etc.) own by the photographer here. Laughing Laughing Laughing


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lloydy wrote:

Our's is an interest, and appreciation, of the lenses - not what they can do. That is secondary, it's why we use soft lenses, mediocre lenses, uncoated and flaring lenses; we use them because we like the lens as an object and enjoy getting the best out of that lens. If it is a good lens then the joy is great, if the lens is poor then there's joy in the challenge.


Well said!


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
JJB wrote:
Lloydy wrote:

Our's is an interest, and appreciation, of the lenses - not what they can do. That is secondary, it's why we use soft lenses, mediocre lenses, uncoated and flaring lenses; we use them because we like the lens as an object and enjoy getting the best out of that lens. If it is a good lens then the joy is great, if the lens is poor then there's joy in the challenge.


Well said!

+1


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sure (MF users) are not big enough in camera market...
Different regions have different consumer (electronic/gadget) habits as well different wealth Very Happy
Just discovered some interesting data/stats on SR:

Quote:
About the mirrorless market:
- The mirrorless system camera market is growing everywhere (althaugh very slowly in US).
– Half of the system cameras sold in Japan and Korea are mirrorless (see blue bars on the image on top)
– In Germany the share now is 29%


http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-says-5-axis-is-very-likely-to-be-on-future-models-too/


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
vlousada wrote:
JJB wrote:
Lloydy wrote:

Our's is an interest, and appreciation, of the lenses - not what they can do. That is secondary, it's why we use soft lenses, mediocre lenses, uncoated and flaring lenses; we use them because we like the lens as an object and enjoy getting the best out of that lens. If it is a good lens then the joy is great, if the lens is poor then there's joy in the challenge.


Well said!

+1


I agree that is a motivation for many people here, and I'm sure it applies to me at some level, but is not what I relate to the most. I have purchased rather few lenses other than for their reputation or what I have seen in results. I am most interested in what they do. The lenses that I'm targeting now are very few in number and each offers something special. Lenses that I would sell either disappointed or just don't click with me. The manual nature of it is very special to me as I feel it makes me more one with the camera. It brings me back to my beginnings when I shot this way. My favorite lenses are such for their performance and I care little about how they look (some are evidence of that). I honestly believe my emphasis and passion is the photography, but I do also admit some amount of nagging gadget interest. I don't think it is coincidental that this all connects to some personality trait. I feel much the same about my cars and I appreciate other type antiques as well. I make a living by serving a 50 year old market. I do like younger women though... but my wife does remain dear to me.

On the subject of the Sony A7, while it may seem expensive to some of us, it is bargain priced in comparison to other FF cameras.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
HAY, my question was about MFL usage as a segment of the camera market. Are we minuscule or significant?


We are minuscule, as others have already said. We also skew OLD!

I fully anticipate all these wonderful MF lenses I love so much today will be worthless in fifty years . . . except perhaps as paperweights or museum pieces. Fortunately I will not be here to weep over such sadness.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
woodrim wrote:
HAY, my question was about MFL usage as a segment of the camera market. Are we minuscule or significant?


We are minuscule, as others have already said. We also skew OLD!

I fully anticipate all these wonderful MF lenses I love so much today will be worthless in fifty years . . . except perhaps as paperweights or museum pieces. Fortunately I will not be here to weep over such sadness.


They were nearly worthless once before, but some genius figured out how to adapt them. For such a tiny bunch, we sure can run up some prices.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
The sad thing is that the vast majority of interchangeable lens users don't know that you can use old manual lenses on their cameras


It's actually a good thing, could you imagine the price of some desirable glass if the ebay auctions were attracting 1000 times more views ? Wink

For collecting and using old lenses, you need to be curious about photography in general, not just only about your photos.

For a lot of people photography is like computer hardware. It's nice until the next big thing comes out. Then if you don't upgrade you feel like you are out of the game, unable to follow the others, you will miss things. It's all about what's next, not what have been.

Old glass on modern cameras is combining the best of both, that's what I love. Modern sensor tech, incredible low light possibilities, lightning quick developping process... but trough an old lens, all this stuff becomes more human, because it's not anymore about pixels and software but glass and metal. A great tool that will still be as great in 50 or 100 years. Our old lenses are bringing humanity to digital photography. It brings feel, effort, imperfection but reward. Not a lot of people want this, or understand this.

We are tiny, and I hope it will stay like that. The supplies are limited ! One of my dreams is to build a complete set of Zuiko and Contax lenses, and I don't want to spend millions doing that ! Wink

Last edited by Billou on Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
woodrim wrote:
guardian wrote:
woodrim wrote:
HAY, my question was about MFL usage as a segment of the camera market. Are we minuscule or significant?


We are minuscule, as others have already said. We also skew OLD!

I fully anticipate all these wonderful MF lenses I love so much today will be worthless in fifty years . . . except perhaps as paperweights or museum pieces. Fortunately I will not be here to weep over such sadness.


They were nearly worthless once before, but some genius figured out how to adapt them. For such a tiny bunch, we sure can run up some prices.


Although we can't be that small, or the enterprising Chinese wouldn't be manufacturing so many cheap adapters. It suggests that MF lens enthusiasts might carry more weight than we realize.

I think the prices of those adapters are a good indicator of relative obscurity. Try searching for a Miranda, Petriflex, or Kiev adapter to mirrorless as compared to a Konica, Pentax, or Minolta.


PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is only in the last couple of years that we have got back to the situation where full frame 35mm photography is affordable for non-pros.
First the D600 (which is why I have only bought Nikkors for the last 18 months) and then the various Sony bodies.
The problem with crop frame, and especially M4/3 bodies, is that most manual 35mm lenses became effectively long to very long, and there wasn't much benefit trying to use legacy wide lenses over using the kit zoom that came with the camera.

The new Sony A7 II looks like it could almost be the dream camera for using manual lenses on. It may be a bit bigger than the A7, but it looks like it might come closer to the size of my old OM10 or Spotmatic, than a modern chunky DSLR, which is a happy medium to my mind. I like a lot of things about my NEX 5N, but the body is so light it shakes when you breath on it.

There is another group who want to use good manual glass, and that is video shooters, and again, they have never been so well served.

So although the community may be small, it has never been better placed to grow.
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