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Hexanon 28mm "mystery" lens
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:50 pm    Post subject: Hexanon 28mm "mystery" lens Reply with quote
So here it is, then. This is the 28mm Hexanon that always gives me trouble to know whether it's a 5-element lens, or is it a 7-element lens?

The rubber grip mitigates in favor of the former; the f16 minimum aperture in favor of the latter.

Click here to see on Ebay

Must be some other confused souls out there with so many watchers. I should think at 7 elements and at this price it's a quick purchase. At 5 elements, perhaps not quite as quick.

What to do. I've never been able to solve this quandary.

ETA

Good heavens I just stumbled across another one of these things down in TX. Two in one day! Same lens. Same mystery:

Click here to see on Ebay

Once again, decent price if it's a seven element lens. And a boatload of watchers, too!


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
No mystery, both of those are the later 5 element version.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Hexanon 28mm "mystery" lens Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
So here it is, then. This is the 28mm Hexanon that always gives me trouble to know whether it's a 5-element lens, or is it a 7-element lens?

The rubber grip mitigates in favor of the former; the f16 minimum aperture in favor of the latter.

Click here to see on Ebay

Must be some other confused souls out there with so many watchers. I should think at 7 elements and at this price it's a quick purchase. At 5 elements, perhaps not quite as quick.

What to do. I've never been able to solve this quandary.

ETA

Good heavens I just stumbled across another one of these things down in TX. Two in one day! Same lens. Same mystery:

Click here to see on Ebay

Once again, decent price if it's a seven element lens. And a boatload of watchers, too!


The first of them is not a Hexanon. It's a Hexar and it is, indeed, of a 5/5 optical construction. This Hexar was made from early 1975 to late 1977. Judging by its SN, which are fairly regular in the case of the Hexar 28, it was made in very early 1977.

The second lens, however, is a bona fide Hexanon and is optically identical to the all 28mm automatic Hexanons made since 1965 (7/7). There were 4 versions of this lens: high-gloss barrel with aluminum ring (1965-67); flat finish barrel with aluminum ring (1968-70); all black/all-metal (1970-74); and rubber covered focusing ring (1973-7eight - I get a smiley here, for crying out loud!). There is really no difference in optical construction between the four. The only optical difference between them is due to progressively better coatings as time went by. The lens on the auction is from September 1976.

Incidentally, the fact that a Hexanon lens has 'EE' or 'AE' on the aperture ring is entirely immaterial. It doesn't correspond to any technical difference or, even less, to different lens 'versions'.

Both lenses you show have f16 as the smallest aperture. The f22 compact version of the 28mm was introduced in early 1977. It is also of 5/5 construction (the only such Hexanon). Although the 7/7 is definitely more desirable, the 5/5 compact is also an excellent lens, which was made well into the 1980s and tends to have even better coatings than the 7/7 model (N.B. I am not talking of the Hexar here).

Of the two auctions you gave, the second is definitely more desirable. I recommend that lens with my eyes closed. Although it an be found for less, I think this is a very good price for it, especially considering that it comes with case and seems quite clean.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ooh, I was wrong. Smile

That second one is a dead ringer for the 5 element one I have, I should have looked more carefully.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Hexanon 28mm "mystery" lens Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
No mystery, both of those are the later 5 element version.


konicamera wrote:
guardian wrote:
So here it is, then. This is the 28mm Hexanon that always gives me trouble to know whether it's a 5-element lens, or is it a 7-element lens?

The rubber grip mitigates in favor of the former; the f16 minimum aperture in favor of the latter.

Click here to see on Ebay

Must be some other confused souls out there with so many watchers. I should think at 7 elements and at this price it's a quick purchase. At 5 elements, perhaps not quite as quick.

What to do. I've never been able to solve this quandary.

ETA

Good heavens I just stumbled across another one of these things down in TX. Two in one day! Same lens. Same mystery:

Click here to see on Ebay

Once again, decent price if it's a seven element lens. And a boatload of watchers, too!


The first of them is not a Hexanon. It's a Hexar and it is, indeed, of a 5/5 optical construction. This Hexar was made from early 1975 to late 1977. Judging by its SN, which are fairly regular in the case of the Hexar 28, it was made in very early 1977.

The second lens, however, is a bona fide Hexanon and is optically identical to the all 28mm automatic Hexanons made since 1965 (7/7). There were 4 versions of this lens: high-gloss barrel with aluminum ring (1965-67); flat finish barrel with aluminum ring (1968-70); all black/all-metal (1970-74); and rubber covered focusing ring (1973-7eight - I get a smiley here, for crying out loud!). There is really no difference in optical construction between the four. The only optical difference between them is due to progressively better coatings as time went by. The lens on the auction is from September 1976.

Incidentally, the fact that a Hexanon lens has 'EE' or 'AE' on the aperture ring is entirely immaterial. It doesn't correspond to any technical difference or, even less, to different lens 'versions'.

Both lenses you show have f16 as the smallest aperture. The f22 compact version of the 28mm was introduced in early 1977. It is also of 5/5 construction (the only such Hexanon). Although the 7/7 is definitely more desirable, the 5/5 compact is also an excellent lens, which was made well into the 1980s and tends to have even better coatings than the 7/7 model (N.B. I am not talking of the Hexar here).

Of the two auctions you gave, the second is definitely more desirable. I recommend that lens with my eyes closed. Although it an be found for less, I think this is a very good price for it, especially considering that it comes with case and seems quite clean.


By Jove that first lens IS a Hexar!! Take a bow. That's superb fraud spotting, very, very observant and smart. I never so much as thought to question the auction banner! And of course being a Hexar it has five elements. Even I knew that, regardless if I was fooled by the inaccurate auction title.

Now on the Texas lens, the second lens:

Hmmmm. There appears to be a measure of disagreement amongst the experts. What I wrote in the OP (I now realize) does not apply at all to the Hexar. I never would have written the OP had I realized it was a Hexar.

But my OP still stands for the sake of the second lens (only).

Unrelated to the question at hand here, and not really wanting to veer off (my own) topic, but:

It almost seems easier to confine buying to the metal-grip f16 versions. At least that way you can know for certain it's a seven element lens.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
Ooh, I was wrong. Smile

That second one is a dead ringer for the 5 element one I have, I should have looked more carefully.



[our posts crossed]


OK, no big problem. In fact, this is helpful.

So now, no disagreement. The Texas lens, the second lens, is a seven element.

This is good. Smile Thanks.

Still not sure I want to buy it, though. Laughing

I will pass, however, on the Hexar. Not funny, with so many watchers, that some bidder could end up with a Hexar while expecting to open shipment and find a Hexanon!! eBay bear trap!


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Hexar is the same size as the 5 element Hexanon, and i only looked at the size. The second lens looks smaller than my all-metal early one so I just assumed it was a 5 element one too, my bad. Smile


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The Hexar is the same size as the 5 element Hexanon, and i only looked at the size. The second lens looks smaller than my all-metal early one so I just assumed it was a 5 element one too, my bad. Smile


Ian, appearances can be misleading on an Ebay photo. In terms of dimensions, the lens you have (I assume it is an all-black/all-metal one - they are quite common) and the later version with a rubber clad focusing ring are identical. They are both 63mm wide at the focusing ring and 43mm high from the lens mount. The latter version is just slightly lighter, 3g to be exact (213g vs 210g). That difference is due to the missing metal on the focusing ring that was replaced with rubber.

I think the misunderstanding about the larger Hexanon 28mm with a rubber focusing ring being a 5/5 lens is largely due to the fact that it is often confused with the Hexar. One sees this all the time and I think this is the case with the TX seller. He probably doesn't realize there is a difference. People read Hex.... and end there Smile From a distance they do seem a bit alike.

But looking closer, the Hexar is 66mm wide (wider than the early Hexanon) and 37mm high (the same height as the later, compact Hexanon 28mm) and weighs 195g. It also has a distinct appearance: a small recessed and convex front element and a relatively thin and wide focusing ring. The whole contraption makes me think of a mini sombrero.

BTW, although the three Hexars (there was also a 135mm and a 200mm) were intended as 'entry level' lenses, they are very respectable performers in their own right.


PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, my 7 elements Hexanon 28 is the all metal all black one. I just gave my last copy of the 5 elements later one away, but I still have a Hexar 28. I should have taken a group shot when I had them all, to guide people.

I second your comment on the Hexars, I have all three, they are very good lenses. Build quality seems excellent too.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks to both of you fellows for a good discussion. And special thanks to konicamera for his expertise.

On strength of that, and after about an hour of studying the lens, I pulled the trigger on the TX lens, which is the second lens in the OP. I think this will be my first Hexanon 28mm 7 element with a rubber grip. I have several other 28's, both fives and sevens, all Hexanons.

I like the Hexanon 28mm lenses in general and I have that particular lens under accumulation. This just means when I see one at the right price I buy because I believe the intrinsic value of the lens exceeds the ever shrinking value of the $$$$. This lens was on the bubble, but what the heck. After all, it is just a bit unusual. Smile

Finally, while I am respectful Hexar lenses are of high quality, I don't think it's OK to undertake selling one while labeling it a Hexanon, as with lens #1 in the OP. Honesty is the best policy.

BTW, here is another 28 seven element. I've been surprised by the attention it is drawing, albeit it has a metal grip so everyone knows straightaway it is a seven element lens:

Click here to see on Ebay


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
You should grab a Minolta 3.5/28 metal body, it's also a 7 element design and easily as good as the Hexanon, maybe even better.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:
Thanks to both of you fellows for a good discussion. And special thanks to konicamera for his expertise.

On strength of that, and after about an hour of studying the lens, I pulled the trigger on the TX lens, which is the second lens in the OP. I think this will be my first Hexanon 28mm 7 element with a rubber grip. I have several other 28's, both fives and sevens, all Hexanons.

I like the Hexanon 28mm lenses in general and I have that particular lens under accumulation. This just means when I see one at the right price I buy because I believe the intrinsic value of the lens exceeds the ever shrinking value of the $$$$. This lens was on the bubble, but what the heck. After all, it is just a bit unusual. Smile

Finally, while I am respectful Hexar lenses are of high quality, I don't think it's OK to undertake selling one while labeling it a Hexanon, as with lens #1 in the OP. Honesty is the best policy.

BTW, here is another 28 seven element. I've been surprised by the attention it is drawing, albeit it has a metal grip so everyone knows straightaway it is a seven element lens:

Click here to see on Ebay


This is 35mm F2.8 lens (your ebay link) Wink


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
You should grab a Minolta 3.5/28 metal body, it's also a 7 element design and easily as good as the Hexanon, maybe even better.

I never tried the 28/3.5 (7/7), I stopped looking after finding the 28/2.5 (9/7) which I like more than my Rokkor X 28/2 (10/9).


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
guardian wrote:

Finally, while I am respectful Hexar lenses are of high quality, I don't think it's OK to undertake selling one while labeling it a Hexanon, as with lens #1 in the OP. Honesty is the best policy.


While I agree entirely with what you say about the need for honesty and I know that swindlers of all stripes are legion on Ebay, IMO it is perhaps a bit hasty to suspect this seller of having "undertaken" to mislead potential buyers, as seems to be your implication. In my experience, the Hexanon/Hexar mistake is most often due to oversight, or downright ignorance, and rarely has to do with deliberate misrepresentation. That is especially the case for someone selling mostly other stuff than photo paraphernalia, as seems to be the case here. I've drawn sellers' attention to such mistakes in the past, and most of them were quite willing to correct their listing graciously.


PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
RAART wrote:
guardian wrote:
Thanks to both of you fellows for a good discussion. And special thanks to konicamera for his expertise.

On strength of that, and after about an hour of studying the lens, I pulled the trigger on the TX lens, which is the second lens in the OP. I think this will be my first Hexanon 28mm 7 element with a rubber grip. I have several other 28's, both fives and sevens, all Hexanons.

I like the Hexanon 28mm lenses in general and I have that particular lens under accumulation. This just means when I see one at the right price I buy because I believe the intrinsic value of the lens exceeds the ever shrinking value of the $$$$. This lens was on the bubble, but what the heck. After all, it is just a bit unusual. Smile

Finally, while I am respectful Hexar lenses are of high quality, I don't think it's OK to undertake selling one while labeling it a Hexanon, as with lens #1 in the OP. Honesty is the best policy.

BTW, here is another 28 seven element. I've been surprised by the attention it is drawing, albeit it has a metal grip so everyone knows straightaway it is a seven element lens:

Click here to see on Ebay


This is 35mm F2.8 lens (your ebay link) Wink


OOPS!! Thanks for the dopeslap. Still a nice lens but, yeah, I messed up.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have the Hexanon 28/1.8, and do not understand why it commands such high prices these days. On the EP2 my Nikkor-NC 28/2 is sharper and was $100 for perfect-glass/ "lots of brassing" condition.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
BrianS wrote:
I have the Hexanon 28/1.8, and do not understand why it commands such high prices these days. On the EP2 my Nikkor-NC 28/2 is sharper and was $100 for perfect-glass/ "lots of brassing" condition.



I believe you got your Nikkor for $100 roughly 5 years ago, so to compare that price to what the Hexanon fetches today is perhaps not a very fair comparison. I don't know the prices of Nikkors these days, but would you still get it for this price?

The Hexanon 28/1.8 was never cheap, even in the best of times. The time to get one was 5-6 years ago, before the mirrorless cameras appeared (I believe you also got your Nikkor at about that time, didn't you?). One could get one for $200-300 then with a little patience. Their average price has doubled since then, and yes, the price some people (KevinCameras and Arsenal, for example) try to sell this lens for is often right off the wall.

But as a superior lens, it always commanded prices that are much higher than average. When it first came out, in 1975, it was one of the very brightest 28s on the market, if not the brightest. It also had fairly advanced coatings for the day (UC stands for 'ultra coating' among other things). Furthermore, it was the first Hexanon whose design called for a floating element, thanks to which this lens can focus down to 18cm from the film plane - highly desirable for some and still hard to beat in our day.

The Hexanon 28/1.8 is reputed to be very sharp. Look at Attila's shots with it: http://forum.mflenses.com/konica-28mm-f1-8-uc-hexanon-t44594.html ; and hoanpham's: http://forum.mflenses.com/viewtopic.php?t=48993 Perhaps the floating element on yours is decentered - I remember this happening to one owned by a friend of mine. All it takes is a hard bump in the wrong place.

Last edited by konicamera on Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:42 pm; edited 3 times in total


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The 1.8/28 is also very hard to find for sale.

If it had the name 'Leica' on it , no-one would complain about the price. Wink


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
I picked the Nikkor up at nelsonfoto- before mirrorless, it is also a floating element design. It never got the reputation of the 35/1.4, never knew why. The Hexanon is even across the field- was virtually new-old-stock, so I don't know. The coating is gorgeous on it. I kept it, gave away some Konica bodies with the 28/3.5 to some students wanting to try film.

I converted a Konica 50/1.7 to RF coupled Leica M Mount. It's very, very good and can maintain RF coupling to 0.65m.

I remember buying Summicrons for $100, before the M8 came out. I bought a pair of Leica III bodies with a Summar and Elmar for $30.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
iangreenhalgh1 wrote:
The 1.8/28 is also very hard to find for sale.

If it had the name 'Leica' on it , no-one would complain about the price. Wink


Indeed, people who have them usually hang on to them. It was also not made in any great quantities. I’ve been compiling a Hexanon database for several years, and I took down details of 64 Hexanons UC 28mm, made between September 1975 and April 1980 with the lowest SN being 6690065 and the highest 6696479. The picture these figures give is not authoritative, but it would seem ‘probable’ that only up to 7000 were made during a period of about 5 years. Not a very rare lens despite the claims of some sellers (very few Hexanons are truly rare), but not all that common either.


PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Some lens may not be as rare as people think. A large number of may be scattered among collectors and resellers so there will be only very limited number for sale. If the rare lens are favorite among the people in the East, it will soon become endangered....
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