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Helios 44m-7 MC KMZ. Is this fake?
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:
Question: Why would anyone go to the trouble to fake a cheap lens like the Helios?

That was my question too. And I got the adequate response you can read above.

All of us ( not meant at you specifically kymarto) should keep in mind that $ 100 might not seem much to some, but in some countries (including mine) this is a lot of money, and people will be ready to do whatever feasable to earn something.
I've been shocked once by a video clip showing guys smashing a takumar with a hammer just because it was yellowed. I've been thinking of the fellow amateur photographers in poorer countries who would have been delighted to get that lens. That's an example of the ugly attitude of "It means very little to ME, so I can destroy" Even if it would mean a lot to many others.
Again, this is a general view I wish to share here.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Indigo82 wrote:
Well, Helios lenses are some of the most produced lenses in the history, i.e. millions of them were made. Probably the most produced according to many. That is why they are cheap in their motherland Russia and ex-Soviet countries. So, let's say I get lens 44m-4 for 1$ in Russia, change the name plate to 44m-7 which has reputation that is the latest and best Helios lens and therefore highly sought item by photographers, and offer this lens for 100$ on Ebay, my profit is increased 100 times or if you want in percentage 9900% (nine thousand nine hundred percent). Can you name me any business where I can have profit of 9900% ? Yes, you have to think, of course. I have 44-2 and 44m-4 and they are great, amazing lenses, with great features and lot of character and I love them both.


But the fake 44-7s have, for instance, an A/M switch, and are arguably more sophisticated than the original 44-7s. And the design is not an older design, so definitely not just a matter of switching name rings. Then there is the matter of the boxes, which have to be printed. The mechanism, as I said, is not original to any Helios, so some factory had to produce that, even if the lenses were removed from older Helios lenses. Then there is the work involved in assembling the lenses--taking apart an old 44 and putting the elements in a new fake body. And given that there is no expensive glass in any of the 44s, it seems it would be economically crazy to recycle old elements in new bodies. It just doesn't make sense to me.


PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:
Indigo82 wrote:
Well, Helios lenses are some of the most produced lenses in the history, i.e. millions of them were made. Probably the most produced according to many. That is why they are cheap in their motherland Russia and ex-Soviet countries. So, let's say I get lens 44m-4 for 1$ in Russia, change the name plate to 44m-7 which has reputation that is the latest and best Helios lens and therefore highly sought item by photographers, and offer this lens for 100$ on Ebay, my profit is increased 100 times or if you want in percentage 9900% (nine thousand nine hundred percent). Can you name me any business where I can have profit of 9900% ? Yes, you have to think, of course. I have 44-2 and 44m-4 and they are great, amazing lenses, with great features and lot of character and I love them both.


But the fake 44-7s have, for instance, an A/M switch, and are arguably more sophisticated than the original 44-7s. And the design is not an older design, so definitely not just a matter of switching name rings. Then there is the matter of the boxes, which have to be printed. The mechanism, as I said, is not original to any Helios, so some factory had to produce that, even if the lenses were removed from older Helios lenses. Then there is the work involved in assembling the lenses--taking apart an old 44 and putting the elements in a new fake body. And given that there is no expensive glass in any of the 44s, it seems it would be economically crazy to recycle old elements in new bodies. It just doesn't make sense to me.


Look to China for answers. There many products besides lenses are "faked", some better quality than genuine...


PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Phalbert wrote:

All of us ( not meant at you specifically kymarto) should keep in mind that $ 100 might not seem much to some, but in some countries (including mine) this is a lot of money, and people will be ready to do whatever feasable to earn something.
I've been shocked once by a video clip showing guys smashing a takumar with a hammer just because it was yellowed. I've been thinking of the fellow amateur photographers in poorer countries who would have been delighted to get that lens. That's an example of the ugly attitude of "It means very little to ME, so I can destroy" Even if it would mean a lot to many others.
Again, this is a general view I wish to share here.


Nothing to add from my side.

Reminds me of what a former manager at Minolta Switzerland told me years ago ... When the original "beercan" Minolta AF 4/70-210mm lens was replaced by the (much lighter and shorter) AF 3.5-4.5/70-210mm, loads of slightly defective "beercans" (guarantee exchanges) were thrown away and replaced with newer AF 3.5-4.5/70-210mm lenses. Proabably thousands of them alone in Switzerland ...

And, years ago as well, I was allowed to go through a heap of roughly 6000 vintage cameras ("swap your old camera for a new one"). Most of them were not defective, yet they were thrown away. And before delivering them to the scrapyard, they were actively destroyed by drilliing a hole through them.

S


PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
visualopsins wrote:
kymarto wrote:
Indigo82 wrote:
Well, Helios lenses are some of the most produced lenses in the history, i.e. millions of them were made. Probably the most produced according to many. That is why they are cheap in their motherland Russia and ex-Soviet countries. So, let's say I get lens 44m-4 for 1$ in Russia, change the name plate to 44m-7 which has reputation that is the latest and best Helios lens and therefore highly sought item by photographers, and offer this lens for 100$ on Ebay, my profit is increased 100 times or if you want in percentage 9900% (nine thousand nine hundred percent). Can you name me any business where I can have profit of 9900% ? Yes, you have to think, of course. I have 44-2 and 44m-4 and they are great, amazing lenses, with great features and lot of character and I love them both.


But the fake 44-7s have, for instance, an A/M switch, and are arguably more sophisticated than the original 44-7s. And the design is not an older design, so definitely not just a matter of switching name rings. Then there is the matter of the boxes, which have to be printed. The mechanism, as I said, is not original to any Helios, so some factory had to produce that, even if the lenses were removed from older Helios lenses. Then there is the work involved in assembling the lenses--taking apart an old 44 and putting the elements in a new fake body. And given that there is no expensive glass in any of the 44s, it seems it would be economically crazy to recycle old elements in new bodies. It just doesn't make sense to me.


Look to China for answers. There many products besides lenses are "faked", some better quality than genuine...


I lived in China for 10 years and went all the time to the camera markets. There were fake Nikon and Canon lenses, but I hardly ever saw Helios lenses, much less fake ones. It makes no economic sense to produce copies of one of the cheapest and most plentiful lenses in existence. You make fake Rolex and Cartier watches, not Timexes.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
these are not copies of Helios. this is another Helios marked 44M-7. in this case, it was Helios-44m, and became Helios-44M-7. look on ebay and you will see a lot of "leica" made of tinted " FED " with "Industar" lenses polished to a golden shine and signed "sonnar".


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sergtum wrote:
... "leica" ... with ... lenses polished to a golden shine ...


Reminds me of a genuine Leica M5 I saw here in Lucerne around 2004, at a thrift shop. I was gorgeously gold plated (really fine craftsmanship), and so was its Noctilux 1:1/50mm. I could have gotten it for a mere CHF 1500.--, but was hesitating until it suddenly was gone. The only camera I regret not having bought! Of course it was not an original Leitz work, but nevertheless ... would really be fun to use it these days Wink

S


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
And, years ago as well, I was allowed to go through a heap of roughly 6000 vintage cameras ("swap your old camera for a new one"). Most of them were not defective, yet they were thrown away. And before delivering them to the scrapyard, they were actively destroyed by drilliing a hole through them.

The stuff of nightmares to me ...


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
stevemark wrote:
sergtum wrote:
... "leica" ... with ... lenses polished to a golden shine ...


Reminds me of a genuine Leica M5 I saw here in Lucerne around 2004, at a thrift shop. I was gorgeously gold plated (really fine craftsmanship), and so was its Noctilux 1:1/50mm. I could have gotten it for a mere CHF 1500.--, but was hesitating until it suddenly was gone. The only camera I regret not having bought! Of course it was not an original Leitz work, but nevertheless ... would really be fun to use it these days Wink

S


Fake stuff can be interesting of course. Who knows, that lens might have been interesting... But as I say, I completely understand fake Louis Vuitton bags, but who would face a brown paper bag? A fake Leitz lens could be sold for enough to cover the cost plus profit, but why fake a lens to sell it for $60 when you can, with the same time and effort, fake a much more expensive lens?

I know in China that often workers in factories will use the original machinery late at night using inferior materials they bought to create fakes they sell privately, especially name brand clothing. Perhaps the Soviet workers were doing the same with putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, but that doesn't explain why the “fake“ ones were more sophisticated than the real ones, adding an A/M switch that the originals lacked!


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:
Perhaps the Soviet workers were doing the same with putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, but that doesn't explain why the “fake“ ones were more sophisticated than the real ones, adding an A/M switch that the originals lacked!

Nobody's putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, neither in the Soviet nor the modern times. It's just printing the fake 44M-7 label on the old nameplate, that's it. Sometimes the S/N is altered too, but not always.
44M-4, 44M-5, 44M-6 and 44M-7 share the same body design. Given the average local price of $10-15 for the 44M-4 with a reprinting worth a couple of pennies, selling the result for $60 might be reasonably profitable for some people.
As for "more sophisticated" donors, that's usually even older and cheaper 44M.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
It is not like you really can see a difference anyway. People are obsessed with sharpness. Just get a 44-2 or 44m better build than those newer bodies and cheaper.


PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
D1N0 wrote:
It is not like you really can see a difference anyway. People are obsessed with sharpness. Just get a 44-2 or 44m better build than those newer bodies and cheaper.


I had a 44-2 and got a 44-4 as well since it was supposed to be the sharpest of all, and in direct magnified comparisons I see zero difference.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex TG wrote:
kymarto wrote:
Perhaps the Soviet workers were doing the same with putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, but that doesn't explain why the “fake“ ones were more sophisticated than the real ones, adding an A/M switch that the originals lacked!

Nobody's putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, neither in the Soviet nor the modern times. It's just printing the fake 44M-7 label on the old nameplate, that's it. Sometimes the S/N is altered too, but not always.
44M-4, 44M-5, 44M-6 and 44M-7 share the same body design. Given the average local price of $10-15 for the 44M-4 with a reprinting worth a couple of pennies, selling the result for $60 might be reasonably profitable for some people.
As for "more sophisticated" donors, that's usually even older and cheaper 44M.


Thanks. This really eliminated my confusion.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex TG wrote:
kymarto wrote:
Perhaps the Soviet workers were doing the same with putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, but that doesn't explain why the “fake“ ones were more sophisticated than the real ones, adding an A/M switch that the originals lacked!

Nobody's putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, neither in the Soviet nor the modern times. It's just printing the fake 44M-7 label on the old nameplate, that's it. Sometimes the S/N is altered too, but not always.
44M-4, 44M-5, 44M-6 and 44M-7 share the same body design. Given the average local price of $10-15 for the 44M-4 with a reprinting worth a couple of pennies, selling the result for $60 might be reasonably profitable for some people.
As for "more sophisticated" donors, that's usually even older and cheaper 44M.


Does that mean that previous generations of Helios lenses had the A/M switch and it waseliminated on the 44-7? Because people are saying that the fake 7s have an A/M switch and the real ones don't.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex TG wrote:

Nobody's putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, neither in the Soviet nor the modern times. It's just printing the fake 44M-7 label on the old nameplate, that's it. Sometimes the S/N is altered too, but not always.
44M-4, 44M-5, 44M-6 and 44M-7 share the same body design. Given the average local price of $10-15 for the 44M-4 with a reprinting worth a couple of pennies, selling the result for $60 might be reasonably profitable for some people.
As for "more sophisticated" donors, that's usually even older and cheaper 44M.


this is the truth. to some, this seems wild. they can't believe it. but this is actually the case.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:

Does that mean that previous generations of Helios lenses had the A/M switch and it waseliminated on the 44-7?

Yes.
44M was the first Helios that had auto aperture function, and the only one equipped with A/M switch. The switch was dropped out of the later models (44M-4 and so on).


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
kymarto wrote:
Alex TG wrote:
kymarto wrote:
Perhaps the Soviet workers were doing the same with putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, but that doesn't explain why the “fake“ ones were more sophisticated than the real ones, adding an A/M switch that the originals lacked!

Nobody's putting old Helios elements from previous generations in 44-7 bodies, neither in the Soviet nor the modern times. It's just printing the fake 44M-7 label on the old nameplate, that's it. Sometimes the S/N is altered too, but not always.
44M-4, 44M-5, 44M-6 and 44M-7 share the same body design. Given the average local price of $10-15 for the 44M-4 with a reprinting worth a couple of pennies, selling the result for $60 might be reasonably profitable for some people.
As for "more sophisticated" donors, that's usually even older and cheaper 44M.


Does that mean that previous generations of Helios lenses had the A/M switch and it waseliminated on the 44-7? Because people are saying that the fake 7s have an A/M switch and the real ones don't.


The A/M switch was onely on the 44m. There were no 44m-2 or m-3 (or very rare I've never seen them) The 44m-4 to 7 are fully automatic. Note that the 44-7 is a different lens form the 44m-7. It is very rare and had a dedicated aperture mechanism. I found one on Etsy: https://www.etsy.com/listing/712078064/helios-44-7-258mm-kmz-zenit-7-camera-m42




PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
the first version of Helios 44М-4 has the original A/M switch (репитер)

https://fotoussr.ru/lenses/mc-helios-44m-4/

https://fotoussr.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/timthumb.jpg


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
but the vast majority of them don't


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
certainly


PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Alex TG wrote:
kymarto wrote:

Does that mean that previous generations of Helios lenses had the A/M switch and it waseliminated on the 44-7?

Yes.
44M was the first Helios that had auto aperture function, and the only one equipped with A/M switch. The switch was dropped out of the later models (44M-4 and so on).


Thanks for the info. I'm finally getting the picture.
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